Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[transmogrified]

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

On 7/15/2022 at 12:38 PM, transmogrified said:

Was John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54 fulfilled when many of the saints came out of their graves and went into Jerusalem?

Part yes, part no.

Completely no. The criteria for those who are to be resurrected on the last day are not broken into two parts...there is only one last day and those who are to be resurrected are one group...It is spelled out when he says 'All those that God has given to Christ will be raised on the last day..' God gave all the saints to Christ, so both Old Testament and New Testament saints are included in the category of 'All those who God gave to Christ.' 

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

It is written in a divided way and each division must be taken on it's own. 

It is written in a way that includes all saints on one day being raised at one time, at the last trump, at the last day..there are not two last trumps and there are not two last days.. There is no such thing as 'each division must be taken on its own...' for there is no division anywhere.

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

So one part does fulfill the last day of the OT souls and the other the NT never dies. 

There is no 'one part fulfills the last day of OT saints.. as was said the criteria of who is raised is not broken down two groups at two different times like... 'here's a resurrection for the OT saints, here's another resurrection for the NT saints..'

It does not say 'All those in the OT who God gave to Christ will be raised on the last day of the Old Testament, and All those who God gave to Christ in the NT will be raised on the last day of this age...' This is all completely adding to scripture. There are not two last days...this is absurd. It's not just absurd because I say so, there is nothing in John 6 that breaks anything up into divisions. John 6 has 

1) One group of saints called 'All those who God gave to Christ...'

2) One time frame...All of the aforementioned saints will be raised at one time..on the Last Day

You have created a completely different scenario saying:

1) All those who God gave to Christ WILL NOT be raised on the last day...

2) PART of those who God gave to Christ will be raised BEFORE the last day...

3) The other PART of those who God gave to Christ will be raised on the last day...

So all three of the above statements are manifestly incorrect according to John 6.

Not only is is contrary to what Jesus said...it is also contrary to what Paul said that we shall all be changed at the last trump.

You say:

1) We SHALL NOT all be changed at the last trump...

2) PART of us will be changed at the last trump...

3) The other PART of us will be changed BEFORE the last trump..

So you are contrary to both Paul and Jesus in order to substantiate your theory...Paul said if any man preach anything contrary to what we have preached to you, even though it is an angel from heaven, let him be accursed...what you are saying is contrary to what Paul and Jesus said.

To say the 'other part in the NT never dies is also false...The two witnesses are plainly shown to be NT saints and they are also plainly shown to die and are also plainly shown to not have immortal bodies until 3.5 days after their death...they were not given immortality immediately upon death...this is absolutely false. 

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

When we think about how much information God have to cram into single verses or double verses with similar information but for 2 different covenants, it is in those distinctions deeper truths are found.

You are probing into your own imagination, not into scripture...God did not break up the resurrection of NT saints from OT saints so there is no DISTINCTIONS to dig into...no DISTINCTIONS where deeper truths are found...there is NO DISTINCTIONS in scripture...you can't dig deeper into something that does not exist.

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

Just because 'a last day' is spoken of  in one setting does not make it the only way it can be used. 

It is not 'a last day' it is 'the last day...' There is only one last day where all those who God gave to Christ will be resurrected..' There are other last days such as the last day of the feast...but  there is no one that gets resurrected on the last day of the feast..the only resurrection that takes place is the last day of this age...at the Second Coming.

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

And when you sit and compare the before and after, last day having more than one meaning can't be avoided.

There is no 'before and after' to compare...there was no last day resurrection of anyone except the one at the end of this age...All that God gave to Christ does not mean Part of those God gave to Christ...there is no division so there is nothing to compare...there was no last day resurrection of the OT saints before the last day and there is no last day resurrection of the NT saints after the last day ...The only resurrection for BOTH OT and NT saints occurs on the one and only last day resurrection. There are not two last days of resurrections so there is no difference to avoid...there was no before and after, there was no two meanings of the last day so there is nothing to compare or to be avoided.

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

There is too much different between the old and new that it is impossible to treat the death and resurrection the same.

You could list 20 things that are different between the Old and New Testament... it does not thereby create another resurrection...

You could list 400 things that are different between the Old and New Testament...it still would not create another resurrection...this is all foolish speculation on your part to create another resurrection that does not exist.

If God wanted to do have one resurrection for the OT saints and another one for the NT saints, he would not have said 'ALL those that God gave to me will be raised on the last day...' he is not lying...he will indeed raise ALL those who God gave to him on the last day...

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

We know they died and went to HELL and that is why a new was needed.  So why bring in the new and have them die and go to hell?  

You will have to find an alternative explanation that does not contradict scriptures...we are to cast down reasonings and imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bring these thoughts into captivity...you are thinking your reasoning trumps over what is written. It does not.  Heaven and earth will pass away but his words will never pass away.

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

So why bring in the new and have them die and go to hell?  

I could reject scripture saying God created the heaven and earth in six days...I could say 'This is ridiculous...why would it take an all powerful God six days to do this when he could have done it in one second?' The trouble here is not what God COULD HAVE DONE...of course he could have done it in one second, but he didn't...Of course God COULD HAVE resurrected the OT saints before the last day...of course he COULD HAVE separated them...of course God COULD HAVE created the world in one second...but he didn't. You must run the race legitimately...The puzzle pieces are already cut to fit...you are trying to force pieces where they do not fit and other pieces have huge gaping holes...

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

Doesn't it stand to reason that a resurrection taught in the Old Testament CAN'T BE the same as a resurrection taught in the New? 

Doesn't it stand to reason that God could have created the earth in one second? These are not valid arguments. God himself said he included them both in one resurrection at the Last day, so any reason you have against that is not valid.

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

AFTER all, the NEW was brought forth because people WERE DYING under the law of sin and death and Jesus came so that they would NEVER DIE THROUGH GRACE.  The law couldn't FORGIVE sin,  Jesus could.   Being under grace didn't just mean that Jesus became the priest, the place, and the blood MADE SUPER SIMPLE FOR US, but that forgiveness CHANGED what DEATH and DYING meant for the SAVED.  

God made provisions for both OT and NT saints through the death of Jesus...God did not say, 'Because they lived in during the OT times, I must resurrect them before the last day...' This would plainly contradict what is said in John 6. 

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

What was the context? 

The context was WHO would be resurrected and WHEN they would be resurrected...both questions are answered in John 6.

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

Does Jesus ever say anything like it again in which we can find more?  Are there other things said that can confirm or deny it's truth? 

Yes, it can be confirmed by Rev. 11:15 where it says 'it is the time of the dead that they should be judged and that he would give reward unto his servants the prophets..the saints and them that fear his name, both small and great."

Your idea of the 'THE DEAD' meaning the wicked dead is based on the false assumption that only the wicked can be dead...the two witnesses clearly show your theory is incorrect...they are part of the DEAD in Christ, and they were resurrected FROM THE DEAD...3.5 days AFTER they died so they did not immediately get immortal bodies as you claim.

Also the last trump shows we are all changed at one time, and not incrementally as each person dies...this is another totally remodelled scripture to fit your theory...at the Last Trump does NOT mean every person gets changed as they die...the last trump does NOT sound UNTIL the other 6 trumpets have first sounded...the first 6 have not sounded yet so it is apparent the last trump has not been sounding for the past 2000 years...this is absurd.

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

TAKE notice of  ALL the differences in what we are being taught 

John 6:40 And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Notice the difference again.  Do you see how the 6 and here follow each other as to resurrections?  

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

John 6:44 No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

There are no differences...the same last day is in view in all these scriptures...there is not one last day for Lazarus and another last day for the rest...this is total speculation. You are saying to look at the different resurrections...there are not two resurrections so you can't look at something that does not exist.

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

John 6:54 Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

HAVE, POSSESS, OWN, ARE ALREADY LIVING THEIR ETERNAL LIFE and HIM will He raise 

Yes of course this is true...we have eternal life...this is only based on the false distinction between sleeping and death...Jesus used both words to describe death...he said 'Our friend Lazarus sleepeth... I go to awake him' then he said plainly, 'Lazarus is dead.'

The condition is known as sleeping in Jesus...your spirit has departed from your body...just like the two witnesses...their spirit had departed from their body and their dead bodies were laying in the street.  When they were resurrected, the same bodies were changed and they stood upon their feet and ascended up to heaven in a cloud. Were they dead or were they sleeping in Jesus...? they were the 'DEAD IN CHRIST', and they are also called 'SLEEPING IN JESUS.' So both words are used to denote the same condition. So your whole contention that you cannot be dead and also be not dead is false.. Jesus himself said Lazarus was dead and he also said he was sleeping.

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

Does that sound anything like 

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
 

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Many of the DEAD rise when Christ returns,  Some of the DEAD do not. Some of those resurrected dead will receive everlasting life, some LOF.    Sound familar?  

The word 'many' is used as a synecdoche...it is a figure of speech where a part is put for the whole...it is like when Paul said 'Christ died for the sins of many..' did he mean he died for quite a few people but not for all of us? Of course not...It plainly states Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and not just for the believers...

You can go with the word 'many' and take it to mean 'some' but it will not work out....so lets take it that 'many' only means 'some' and see how it works out..here is how it would translate:

And 'Some' of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...' It does not say the righteous will rise and the wicked will not..it says some will be righteous and some will be wicked. So where do you go from here? 

We could say, yes, both are said to rise, but the righteous who are raised will be raised at the Second Coming, and the wicked will be raised at the end of the 1000 years, but the timeframe prohibits this from being the case. 

The problem with this is that in Daniel 12:7 it says 'All these things will be finished by the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast.'All of what things?  The angel asked in Dan. 12:6  'How long shall it be TO THE END of these wonders?' So what does that mean? It means how long will it be to the END of the resurrection of the just and the unjust he just spoke of. He didn't ask how long shall it be to the time the resurrection of the just and unjust will be STARTED, but when THE END OF IT  would be. The end means, when will the resurrection and all the other wonders he just stated be completed?

Another thing the angel did not ask was 'How long shall it be the end of the resurrection of the righteous? No...He asked how long would it be to the end of the resurrection of BOTH the wicked and the righteous. This is why the word 'many' cannot be used to convey the idea that only the righteous rise at this time and the wicked do not rise until the end of the 1000 years, and must be used as a synecdoche in the sense that the word 'many' is a grammatical construct stating that a part is put for the whole, as it was used when Paul said Christ died for many.

One other way this is translated is 'Multitudes of those sleeping in the dust of the earth shall awake...' Both words are correct, but if the word 'many' is taken to mean a lot of people will be raised, but not all, is when it becomes problematic. 'Multitudes' is used because it shows the amount of people who will be resurrected is great.

There is no understanding that will allow the word 'many' to mean only 'some' will be raised and some will not be raised...One translator named Tregelles was so baffled by it he completely went beyond any rational translation and added words that were not in the text at all in order for it to make it fit within the protocols of what is commonly taught. How did he translate it?

Quote

“And many from among the sleepers of the dust of the earth shall awake; these shall be unto everlasting life; but those the rest of the sleepers, those who do not awake at this time, shall be unto shame and everlasting contempt."

This has been accepted by some of the bigger proponents of pre trib in order to justify the concept that there can be no general resurrection at the Second Coming.. but you can see how far they had to go adding words to get this meaning. There is nothing in the Hebrew text that states 'those who do not awake at this time.'

But as you can also see it is a problem for you as well as pre trib....What is the problem? The problem that never seems to be addressed is that both the wicked and the righteous are resurrected at the Second Coming and what is stated in Daniel 12:7 confirms this fact. What does it say in answer to the question of when shall all these things be finished?

He says it would be for a time, times and dividing of times and when the beast has accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, ALL THESE THINGS WILL BE FINISHED.

So it is important to realize that the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast is when Jesus returns at the Second Coming...He did not say, 'at the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast only the resurrection of the righteous will be finished...nor did he say, 'But the resurrection of the wicked will be 1000 years after the 3.5 year reign of the beast...no...none of these things were said...he said Both the righteous and the wicked will be FINISHED by end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast.

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

SO IF THE DEAD IN CHRIST ARE RAISED UP WHEN CHRIST RETURNS AND THE DEAD AREN'T JUDGED FOR 1000 YEARS,  THEN HOW CAN 'THE DEAD' rule and reign with Christ? 

This is based on your false assumption that THE DEAD are the wicked dead...no..THE DEAD does not mean only the wicked dead...the dead includes both the righteous and the wicked...just because you do not agree with scripture that THE DEAD in Christ will rise at the last day, does not make the phrase THE DEAD only mean the wicked dead. 

It is also an incoherent statement...No one is saying THE DEAD rule and reign with Christ...The dead in Christ are resurrected and then they rule over the existing nations upon the earth...these are the great multitude that came out of every nation, kindred and tribe and were converted at the Second Coming. These are the nations the resurrected saints rule over as kings and priest during the 1000 years. 

It is also incoherent to say 'if THE DEAD are not judged for 1000 years...' All the dead, good and bad will be resurrected and judged at the second coming...the sheep and goats, the wheat and tares and the good and bad fish plainly state the wicked are judged and cast into the lake of fire at the second coming....Those who live and die during the 1000 years are the only ones who get judged at the Great White Throne....all others are resurrected, judged and rewarded at the Second Coming. Where does the Bible say this? He shall judge the QUICK AND THE DEAD at his appearing and kingdom...when is his appearing and kingdom? At the Second Coming...he does not appear at and set up his kingdom at the end of the 1000 years, but when he comes...this is when the sheep and goats and wheat and tares are resurrected and rewarded...not at the end of the 1000 years...What does he say about the sheep and goats? It says WHEN the Son of man shall come...THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory...when do the sheep and goats all appear before him? At the end of the 1000 years? NO. Both sheep and goats are before him WHEN HE COMES...he does not come at the end of the 1000 years...

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

SOME of the dead didn't resurrect when Christ returned but 1000 years later they will be given up for judgment

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

This is the main error in both pre trib and even in your position and almost every position. The scripture says when he comes EVERY EYE shall see him, even those who pierced him...how can every eye see him when he comes in the clouds, if the wicked dead are not resurrected until the end of the 1000 years...they can't. Jesus does not come at the end of the 1000 years so they CAN NOT SEE HIM WHEN HE COMES, if they are not resurrected until the end of the 1000 years.

How can Caiphas see Jesus coming in the clouds if he is not resurrected? He can't... Paul said those that were persecuting the saints at Thessalonica would be punished with everlasting fire when Jesus comes...he did not say they would be punished 1000 years after Jesus comes...he said they would be punished with everlasting fire, meaning the lake of fire, when He comes.

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Hosea 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

 

Yes, this is talking about the restoration of Israel...he has torn, he has smitten, and he will heal them...this is when Israel is grafted back into the vine...these are the 144000 who accept Jesus when they see the nail prints in his hands...Jesus said he would set over these 12 tribes of Israel the 12 apostles and they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel during the 1000 years...this does not mean the OT saints were resurrected when Jesus was resurrected. After two days means after 2000 years after Christ was resurrected they would be healed and live in his sight on the 3rd day...meaning during the 1000 year reign of Christ...If it meant what you would like it to mean, Jesus would not have included the OT saints in the resurrection on the last day, the same resurrection that those who eat his flesh and drink his blood would be resurrected...at the same last trump, at the same 7th trumpet when his servants the prophets and THE SAINTS (not just NT saints, not just OT saints, but THE SAINTS, meaning all the saints) and those that fear his name, both small and great would be rewarded...

On 7/16/2022 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
What do the alive and remaining not prevent the dead from doing?

The better translations have it 'shall not preceed,' or 'shall not come before' those who are asleep...the meaning is that the dead in Christ shall not precede or go before the living...meaning the dead in Christ ascend up FIRST and then the dead in Christ ascend up AFTER that. So it is meaning a sequence of events...the living will not ascend before the dead ascend. 

But this is of course another nail in the coffin....The dead are said to ASCEND first...you are saying they were already up there in their glorified state...this is the same scenario as the two witnesses...they did not ASCEND up into heaven in their glorified state UNTIL THE LAST TRUMPET SOUNDED...so do the dead in Christ not ASCEND up UNTIL THE LAST TRUMPET SOUNDS. 

They are not already up there in a glorified body...they are glorified at the point of resurrection...meaning they are sleeping in Jesus and they awake in his likeness...they are CHANGED into immortality AT THE LAST TRUMPET...NOT when they died...this is very easy to understand and only by pride comes contention.

On 7/16/2022 at 8:52 AM, DeighAnn said:

On 7/16/2022 at 6:55 AM, transmogrified said:

No man has been resurrected and received an immortal body as of yet...Jesus is the only one who has done that...

 

No man has been resurrected and received an immortal body as of yet...not before the resurrection of Christ, and not after his resurrection

Tell that to this guy

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

The reason this man is up there is because the rapture has just taken place and in the beginning of Rev. 19 it makes it clear:

Quote

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:  

After what things? Babylon, which is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth has just been destroyed in Rev. 18 and on that same day the last trumpet sounded and the saints are now in heaven...this is the context when John was going to worship the one who showed him these things...the man told him to worship God and that he was of his brethren and fellow servants the prophets...how did this great multitude  get up there to heaven? The last trumpet had sounded and the saints were resurrected and now have immortality...The dead in Christ have NOW ASCENDED and they are now up in heaven...they didn't have immortality before the last trumpet sounded, but now at the very end of the tribulation when Jesus will return with his saints, the dead in Christ now descend from heaven with Jesus to Armageddon...this is where John sees the man who he almost worshipped. The word 'angel' is used at times to denote men who are messengers of God..in this case the man was in an immortal body and so he was like the angels and Jesus said...the children of the resurrection will be like the angels...

On 7/16/2022 at 10:19 AM, DeighAnn said:

WHEN does the CHANGE begin??

The change happens in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye AT THE LAST TRUMP...it takes place in a twinkling of an eye, what do you mean when does it BEGIN? It BEGINS and ENDS in a twinkle of an eye...and it happens only when the 7th angel sounds...there are 6 other trumpets to sound before the 7th one sounds and none of them have sounded yet...so there is no way to construe the 7th trumpet has been sounding for the last 2000 years. 

On 7/16/2022 at 10:19 AM, DeighAnn said:

The dying of the flesh brings to life the spiritual bare grain that God gives a body to.  

So WHERE DOES THAT SPIRITUAL BODY HANG OUT FOR 1000, plus or minus a thousand years?  

You are talking gibberish.. All the saints receive glorified bodies at the resurrection at the Second Coming and they rule over the nations as kings and priests for 1000 years. 

The dying of the flesh doesn't do anything until the Last trumpet sounds...it is then and only then that mortality puts on immortality...just like the two witnesses...what did their dead bodies do for 3.5 days laying dead in the street? The bodies did nothing...just like the dirt on the ground does nothing...they laid there until the voice of God said 'come up hither...' then and only then did they stand upon their feet...if the voice had not sounded for 2000 years, then their bodies would have done nothing for 2000 years. 

On 7/16/2022 at 10:19 AM, DeighAnn said:

WHAT YOU SOW NOT DOES COME TO LIFE,  IF NOT IT DIES. 

599. apothnéskó ►
Strong's Concordance
apothnéskó: to die
Original Word: ἀποθνῄσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apothnéskó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-oth-nace'-ko)
Definition: to die
Usage: I am dying, am about to die, wither, decay.
HELPS Word-studies
599 apothnḗskō (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – properly, die off (away from), focusing on the separation that goes with the "dying off (away from)."

599 /apothnḗskō ("die off, from") occurs 111 times in the NT. It stresses the significance of the separation that always comes with divine closure. 599 (apothnḗskō) stresses the ending of what is "former" – to bring what (naturally) follows.

NOT THE BODY THAT WILL BE

Exactly...it is not the body that shall be...it is changed from corruption to incorruption...from mortal to immortality...CHANGED means it is not the same...it is where we get the word MORPH...Jesus appeared to his disciples after his resurrection in ANOTHER FORM...this is what kind of body we get...it is ANOTHER FORM...

You are tooting the horn that it will not be the body that shall be...you just have the timing off...it is not changed until the Last Trump...not as each person dies...

On 7/16/2022 at 10:19 AM, DeighAnn said:

Praise ye the Lord

Amen...Bless you - Gary

[truth7t7]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose:
HE SHALL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND WITH FIRE


Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

FIRE, not always about destruction.  

The fire seen below will be utter destruction "Dissolved" the earth and its works will be "burned up" literally!

2 Peter 3:7-13KJV

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It is written in a way that includes all saints on one day being raised at one time, at the last trump, at the last day..there are not two last trumps and there are not two last days.. There is no such thing as 'each division must be taken on its own...' for there is no division anywhere.

 

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

1) Are you saying this is a resurrection or this isn't a resurrection? 

2) Are you saying this did not take place at the end of the OLD COVENANT or it did take place at the end of the OLD COVENANT


1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

3) Did the resurrection of the dead that were sleeping come by Christ or WILL the resurrection of the dead come by Christ?

 

Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Luke 20:39 Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said.

4)  What does 'now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed..?

5)  If the dead were raised BEFORE Christ, would that be a resurrection or would that not be a resurrection?

6)  If God is the God of the living and NOT the dead, and is the God of Abraham, how can Abraham be dead awaiting to be resurrected out from the dead and God be his God? 

7)  When Enoch and Elijah 'walked' with God, were they raised up/resurrected to heaven?  If not,  what would their 'going to be with God' be called?  


8)  When Jesus said to Peter, you will FOLLOW after, did He really mean you will resurrect when I return?  If yes, then why the words 'FOLLOW and you know the way' be used instead of  'wait until I return'?

9)  Why did Jesus say I go to prepare a place for you that you may be where I am?  If we were going to raise up at the last day ANYHOW why did Jesus pray we would be with Him?

10)  Paul wrote Jesus died and rose,  EVEN SO THEM.  What does that mean? 

11)  How exactly can someone who will never die be resurrected out from the dead?

12)  If decay can not inherit immortality, how can any of the 'dead' be raised immortal before the GWTJ?


 

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It is written in a way that includes all saints on one day being raised at one time, at the last trump, at the last day..there are not two last trumps and there are not two last days.. There is no such thing as 'each division must be taken on its own...' for there is no division anywhere.

You KEEP SAYING

all the saints

are being raised at one time

but THAT isn't what is written

it is the DEAD, NOT the saints that rise. 

WHY are you calling the DEAD saints? and

Why are you calling the SAINTS the dead?

The resurrection is of the JUST AND THE UNJUST, you surely are not calling the UNJUST SAINTS, correct?
.  

PLEASE, WATCH CLOSELY IN THE GREEK

1 Corinth 15:50  This now I say, brothers, that flesh and blood, [the] kingdom of God to inherit not is able, NOR the decay the immortality does inherit.

IF THE SAINTS ARE GOING TO BE RESURRECTED OUT FROM THE DECAY, AND THE DECAY DOES NOT RECEIVE IMMORTALITY,

DOESN'T THAT ALONE TELL YOU

THE DEAD, IN FACT, ARE SIMPLY 'THE DEAD THAT ARE RAISED AND NOT THE SAINTS AT ALL?




51  Behold a mystery to you I tell.  ALL not we will sleep, all however we will be changed

52  in an instant, in twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, The trumpet will sound for and the DEAD will be raised imperishable and we will be changed

NOW YOUR RENDERING OF 52
 in an instant, in twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, The trumpet will sound for and the SAINTS will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed
 

Do you see how YOU HAVE CHANGED THE ENTIRE MEANING OF WHAT IS WRITTEN

BY SUBTRACTING 'THE DEAD' AND ADDING 'THE SAINTS' IN ITS PLACE, 

EVEN KNOWING 

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[DeighAnn]

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

There are not two last days...this is absurd.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

WHO COULD BELIEVE IN CHRIST EVEN THOUGH HE WERE ALREADY DEAD AND IN THE GRAVE?

ONLY SOMEONE WHO WAS DEAD AND IN THE GRAVE AT THE SAME TIME CHRIST WAS.  HE doesn't keep going back.  Just the one time would He die and descend.  

(and please don't try to flip this to being 'spiritually dead' the time being Lazarus in the grave, PHYSICALLY DEAD) 

 

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

NOT A RESURRECTION OF THE SAINTS, BUT OF THE DEAD

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

SAME ONE, SAME DEAD NOT SAINTS



Praise ye the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY and His Saviour Jesus Christ

[DeighAnn]

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

You have created a completely different scenario saying:

1) All those who God gave to Christ WILL NOT be raised on the last day...

2) PART of those who God gave to Christ will be raised BEFORE the last day...

3) The other PART of those who God gave to Christ will be raised on the last day...

So all three of the above statements are manifestly incorrect according to John 6.

Not only is is contrary to what Jesus said...it is also contrary to what Paul said that we shall all be changed at the last trump.

1)  The dead who HEARD him when He descended made alive (them who slept)

2)  All those who NEVER DIE ever since (every man in his own order)

3) The two witnesses (the dead in Christ)

4)  The Alive and remaining

5)  Those found in the book of life at the GWTJ

6)  Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

7)  Enoch and Elijah

8)  The dead

Your MISSION,  should you choose to accept it,  is to put ALL THOSE INTO ONE RESURRECTION to prove what you say to be truth.

[DeighAnn]

11 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So you are contrary to both Paul and Jesus in order to substantiate your theory...Paul said if any man preach anything contrary to what we have preached to you, even though it is an angel from heaven, let him be accursed...what you are saying is contrary to what Paul and Jesus said.

 

[DeighAnn]

11 hours ago, transmogrified said:

To say the 'other part in the NT never dies is also false...The two witnesses are plainly shown to be NT saints and they are also plainly shown to die and are also plainly shown to not have immortal bodies until 3.5 days after their death...they were not given immortality immediately upon death...this is absolutely false. 

Makes you wonder if THEY AREN'T SENT FROM HEAVEN IN THEIR IMMORTAL BODIES...

WE KNOW IT IS WRITTEN

 

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

IF I WERE to speculate, I would say,  since they are RETURNING to earth, 
they would be returning in their spiritual bodies,  and much like CHRIST, when the time comes,  will willingly give up the GHOST or else I am sure Satan would have them killed before that prophecy could come about, 

BUT THAT is just pure speculation on my part.  I myself,  have not a clue and don't look at it as a reflection on how GOD has treated ALL MANKINDs flesh, as I believe He can perform whatever miracles He wants.   

[DeighAnn]

11 hours ago, transmogrified said:

You are probing into your own imagination, not into scripture...God did not break up the resurrection of NT saints from OT saints so there is no DISTINCTIONS to dig into...no DISTINCTIONS where deeper truths are found...there is NO DISTINCTIONS in scripture...you can't dig deeper into something that does not exist.

WOW,  I myself, PONDER AND PRAY UPON THE WORDS OF GOD CONSTANTLY.  The only  'imagination' I have, is all about the words of God and is set on the things ABOVE.  

I take that greatest commandment to heart, EVERY SINGLE DAY.  

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
 

[DeighAnn]

11 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The condition is known as sleeping in Jesus...your spirit has departed from your body...just like the two witnesses...their spirit had departed from their body and their dead bodies were laying in the street.  When they were resurrected, the same bodies were changed and they stood upon their feet and ascended up to heaven in a cloud. Were they dead or were they sleeping in Jesus...? they were the 'DEAD IN CHRIST', and they are also called 'SLEEPING IN JESUS.' So both words are used to denote the same condition. So your whole contention that you cannot be dead and also be not dead is false.. Jesus himself said Lazarus was dead and he also said he was sleeping.

Lazarus UNDER THE OLD COVENANT  -   dead/sleeping

When they were resurrected 'and you just add a bunch of your own thoughts like they were the written words of GOD.  Talk about adding to the scriptures. 

You don't seem to see the distinction between the Old and the New and the changes that took place

 

[DeighAnn]

11 hours ago, transmogrified said:

I could reject scripture saying God created the heaven and earth in six days...I could say 'This is ridiculous...why would it take an all powerful God six days to do this when he could have done it in one second?' T

Scripture doesn't say that at all.  
 

IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  No '6 days'.  He RE established it in 6 days and we know this because

THE EARTH WAS IN DARKNESS AKA already present.  Just lit it back up.  We know that because we know 
 

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

AND WE KNOW 'the sons of God WATCHED the earth being created, and it wasn't in darkness and it was created to be inhabited, and it WASN'T created null and void, the state it was in when the book of Genesis opens...
 

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?