Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[transmogrified]

This is a subject that is plain to see in scripture as long as the scriptures showing this to be true are acknowledged. The first one to look at is Daniel 12 where it says '...And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame and contempt.' 

Many have inserted a 1000 year gap between these two resurrections because Rev. 20:5 seemed to imply the wicked dead would not live again until the 1000 years was finished.

What has not been commonly addressed is the time frame in which the angel told Daniel this resurrection of both the good and the bad would take place.

Following the time frame in Daniel it is plain to see what happens when the man of sin comes to his end and none will help. Daniel 11: 45

"And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."

When does he come to his end? Of course this happens at the Second Coming...this is what Paul said in 2 Thess. 2 that the Lord would consume him with the spirit of his mouth and would destroy him with the brightness of his coming.

So connecting these two dots we can see that when the man of sin comes to his end is at Second Coming. I am saying this to establish the time frame for the following events to occur. It specifically says 'At that time,' (the second coming) these things will happen:

1) Michael stands up...

2) There will be a time of trouble...

3) Israel will be delivered...

4) Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...some to life and some to shame....

So when it says 'at that time' these events will take place, Daniel asked the angel in Daniel 12:6 this question:

"How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" So it is apparent the wonders he was asking about were all the wonders that were just shown to him...He did not ask 'How long shall it be to the end of these wonders except for the resurrection of the wicked?' No. He asked 'How long shall it be to the end of THESE wonders.

The angel then answered him saying 'It shall be for a time, times and a half: and when he (anti-christ) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED."

So the angel did not say 'All these things shall be finished at the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast except for the resurrection of the wicked...No. He said at the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast ALL these things will be finished which of course would include the resurrection of the wicked also. 

 

Blessings to you all-

 

 

[Keras]

31 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

So the angel did not say 'All these things shall be finished at the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast except for the resurrection of the wicked...No. He said at the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast ALL these things will be finished which of course would include the resurrection of the wicked also. 

This idea is in direct conflict with Revelation 20, where ALL the rest of the dead,  [Only the martyrs killed during the Great Trib are excluded] must wait until the thousand years of Jesus Millennium reign are over. 

Daniel 12:1-3 is a sequence; First Michael will protect the righteous, Christian Jews thru the forthcoming time of troubles, but then the time of deliverance comes when the Book of Life is opened. Which we know happens after the Millennium.  Revelation 20:11-15 Proved by how the wise leaders and guides, will shine like the stars forever.  In Eternity

The theory of a general resurrection of the Christian dead, or of any body change of the living; when Jesus Returns, is not Biblical. Or logical; as there will be no Judgment of individuals until the Great White Throne Judgment of everyone who has ever lived.     Isaiah 65:20 clearly says there will be births and deaths in the Millennium. 

People like to think that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is a 'rapture' and 1 Corinthians 15:23 is a 'glorification', but the afterwards in that verse means after the Millennium, not at His Return.  Otherwise we have a Biblical anomaly, verses contradicting each other. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Keras

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It specifically says 'At that time,' (the second coming) these things will happen:

1) Michael stands up...

2) There will be a time of trouble...

3) Israel will be delivered...

4) Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...some to life and some to shame....

5) Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens

6)  and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever.

Number 6 is also part of the wonders and lasts forever. So that isn't complete in 3.5 years.

As part of the ones who " will awake, some to everlasting life," is " shine like the stars forever and ever", which can't be completed in 1335 days. This is why I asked, "Which wonders?"

I see the angel specify the wonders in three places:

"“At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered."

" “It will be for a time, and times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has finally been shattered, all these things will be completed.”"

And, "

Many will be purified, made spotless, and refined, but the wicked will continue to act wickedly. None of the wicked will understand, but the wise will understand.

11And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12Blessed is he who waits and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

All three dovetail in concept in that there is some distress coming. The awakening of the dead is not mentioned in connection with Dan 12:7, 9-13. The events of Dan 12:1 are repeated twice but the resurrection is left out in the other two. 

I agree that to place a 1000 year gap between "And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life..." and  "...but others to shame and everlasting contempt." is arguing from silence and gap filling. But I'm not sold on the alternative either in light of Rev 20 where the 2nd death has no power over those in the primary resurrection. 

[transmogrified]

On 5/11/2022 at 10:49 PM, Keras said:

On 5/11/2022 at 10:19 PM, transmogrified said:

No. He said at the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast ALL these things will be finished which of course would include the resurrection of the wicked also. 

This idea is in direct conflict with Revelation 20, where ALL the rest of the dead,  [Only the martyrs killed during the Great Trib are excluded] must wait until the thousand years of Jesus Millennium reign are over. 

Hi Keras- 

 Jesus said those that followed him in the regeneration would sit upon 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel but this cannot happen if they are not resurrected until the 1000 years are over. The 12 disciples Jesus was talking to are not those killed by the beast during the 1000 years...they have been dead for some 2000 years already.

On 5/11/2022 at 10:49 PM, Keras said:

People like to think that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is a 'rapture' and 1 Corinthians 15:23 is a 'glorification', but the afterwards in that verse means after the Millennium, not at His Return. 

Christ the first fruits...afterwards, they that are Christs at his coming...not Christ the first fruits, afterward those who are Christs at the end of the 1000 years. Christ does not come at the end of the 1000 years. 

Quote

People like to think that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is a 'rapture'

In the King James translation it says the living are caught up to meet the dead in Christ who are returning to the earth with Jesus...they meet him in the air so they have to ascend up from off the earth.

Quote

and 1 Corinthians 15:23 is a 'glorification',

Paul said we shall all be changed in a moment in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. The last trump does not sound at the end of the 1000 years, neither did Paul say 'Behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but those that are killed during the tribulation will be changed at the last trump, and the rest will be changed at the end of the 1000 years.' No. He did not say that...he said we would all be changed at the last trump. 

It is not be true that all are changed at the last trump and also true that all are not changed at the last trump.

[transmogrified]

On 5/12/2022 at 3:23 AM, Diaste said:

Number 6 is also part of the wonders and lasts forever. So that isn't complete in 3.5 years.

As part of the ones who " will awake, some to everlasting life," is " shine like the stars forever and ever", which can't be completed in 1335 days. This is why I asked, "Which wonders?"

Of course he is not asking the angel when will be the end of things that have no end...when he said they would shine forever and ever the question was already answered as to how long they would shine...

 

On 5/12/2022 at 3:23 AM, Diaste said:

Number 6 is also part of the wonders and lasts forever. So that isn't complete in 3.5 years.

The other events specified do not last forever...Israel is not getting delivered for ever and ever. Michael does not stand for ever and ever...the time of trouble does not last forever...the resurrection does not last forever and ever...all the dead are raised at the 7th trumpet and are judged and rewarded at the Second Coming. The sheep and goat judgement does not last forever and ever..The goats are cast into the fire at the same time the sheep are rewarded. THEN he says to the sheep...enter into the kingdom...THEN he says to the goats....depart from ye cursed into everlasting fire. 

On 5/12/2022 at 3:23 AM, Diaste said:

I see the angel specify the wonders in three places:

"“At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered."

The resurrection of the just and the unjust are not excluded from the list. Even you would agree the righteous are raised on the last day, which is the end of the reign of the beast. The wicked are resurrected at that very same time. It would be like if your mom told you to go the store and get

1) 1 dozen eggs...

2) 2 loaves of bread...and

3) 1 gallon of milk

And you say...'I see you are asking me to get 1 dozen eggs and 2 loaves of bread.' The only reason you only see 2 items instead of 3 is not because the gallon of milk was not on the list, but because you chose to believe there were only 2 things on the list. All three things are on the list...the resurrection of both the good and the bad are just as much on the list as the other 3.

On 5/12/2022 at 3:23 AM, Diaste said:

All three dovetail in concept in that there is some distress coming. The awakening of the dead is not mentioned in connection with Dan 12:7,

'All these things shall be finished' includes all the things he just mentioned...'All these things' does not mean 'part of these things shall be finished.' 

On 5/12/2022 at 3:23 AM, Diaste said:

And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12Blessed is he who waits and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

This is a timing issue between when the daily sacrifices are abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up...it has nothing to do with how long it takes to raise the dead, or when the dead would be resurrected. When the resurrection of the dead would be finished was already answered in verse 7.  The question was not 'how long will it take to raise the dead?' No. It was when the END of these wonders would be. When he said the END of these wonders, he meant when they would be completed. The END of the resurrection of both the good and the bad will be at the Second Coming. If he meant the wicked would be resurrected at the end of the 1000 years, the angel would have said 'The righteous will be resurrected at the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast, but the resurrection of the wicked will be at the end of the 1000 years.' 

A gap cannot be inserted because the wording itself prohibits it. 

On 5/12/2022 at 3:23 AM, Diaste said:

All three dovetail in concept in that there is some distress coming.

A time of trouble does not make the resurrection of the wicked happen 1000 years later, any more than a time of trouble would make the resurrection of the righteous occur at the end of the 1000 years.  Jesus said Immediately after the tribulation he would gather his elect...this is the resurrection of the just...he didn't say, 'Because there was a tribulation the resurrection can not happen until 1000 years later...The time of trouble is one thing and the resurrection is another thing but the resurrection still happens on the last day. 

 

On 5/12/2022 at 3:23 AM, Diaste said:

The events of Dan 12:1 are repeated twice

The events of Daniel are not repeated twice. Michael stands up once...there is a time of trouble once...Israel is delivered once...

On 5/12/2022 at 3:23 AM, Diaste said:

but the resurrection is left out in the other two. 

There is no other two. The events stated in Dan. 12:1 happen one time. 

 

On 5/12/2022 at 3:23 AM, Diaste said:

I agree that to place a 1000 year gap between "And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life..." and  "...but others to shame and everlasting contempt." is arguing from silence and gap filling.

Its not only arguing from silence, it is in direct contradiction to what is said...The angel would be absolutely wrong to tell Daniel these things would all be finished at the end of the 3. 5 year reign of the beast if in fact only the resurrection of the righteous would happen at that time. 

On 5/12/2022 at 3:23 AM, Diaste said:

But I'm not sold on the alternative either in light of Rev 20 where the 2nd death has no power over those in the primary resurrection. 

The second death does not have power over those in the first resurrection. The problem lies in thinking the first resurrection must mean WE are resurrected before the wicked. If this was the true understanding, then there would be no illustration of the wheat and tares being harvested at the same time. If this was the true understanding, we would not have everyone in the graves hearing his voice and coming forth. Of course anyone can say 'it does not say his voice was not heard twice...' but this is adding to scripture...it does not say 'the righteous shall hear his voice and come forth, and then later the wicked will hear his voice and come forth..' 

If this was the true understanding, the angel would not have told Daniel all these things would be finished at the end of the reign of the beast.

If this was the true understanding we would not have Jesus say when he comes that he would reward every man according as his works shall be. 

If this was the true understanding we would not have Jesus saying when he comes that every eye would see him, even those who pierced him.

If this was the true understanding we would not have Caiphas seeing Jesus coming in the clouds. 

Paul told those at Thessalonia that God would take vengeance on them that were persecuting them when he comes. It says:

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ...who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power..."

And WHEN does he say this will occur?

Verse: 10 "WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints..." When does he come to be glorified in his saints? At the end of the 1000 years..No. He will be glorified in his saints at the Second Coming...and this is the exact same time Paul told the Thessalonians that God would execute vengeance on those that were troubling them. 

The problem is not in the first resurrection, but in how it is being misunderstood. It does not mean WE must be resurrected before the wicked in order to be in the first resurrection. It means we are in Christ who was the first to be resurrected and enter into a glorified body...

Here is how it is stated "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone...but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.'

What does he mean? He means that the fruit that comes later is a result of that seed first dying. The wheat that comes later is not wheat because it became ripe before or after the tares...they are wheat because they came from a wheat seed.  The tares are not tares because they became ripe before or after the wheat became ripe...they are tares because they came from a tare seed. 

The only thing that makes this relevant is that Jesus said both the wheat and tares grew together until the harvest...so both were harvested at the same time...He did not say the tares would be gathered at the end of the next age...he said 'let both grow together until the harvest...' This cannot be construed to mean the wheat was gathered at the end of this age and the tares were gathered at the end of the next age..No.

The problem lies in thinking we must be chronologically resurrected before the wicked to be in the first resurrection...No. Jesus was the first to be raised chronologically....It was not that Jesus was resurrected before any wicked or that he was resurrected before any of the righteous...no, he was resurrected before ANYONE had ever been resurrected. We are in the first resurrection because we died in him, not because we are resurrected before the wicked. 

Blessings to you

 

[Shilohsfoal]

On 5/12/2022 at 12:19 AM, transmogrified said:

This is a subject that is plain to see in scripture as long as the scriptures showing this to be true are acknowledged. The first one to look at is Daniel 12 where it says '...And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame and contempt.' 

Many have inserted a 1000 year gap between these two resurrections because Rev. 20:5 seemed to imply the wicked dead would not live again until the 1000 years was finished.

What has not been commonly addressed is the time frame in which the angel told Daniel this resurrection of both the good and the bad would take place.

Following the time frame in Daniel it is plain to see what happens when the man of sin comes to his end and none will help. Daniel 11: 45

"And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."

When does he come to his end? Of course this happens at the Second Coming...this is what Paul said in 2 Thess. 2 that the Lord would consume him with the spirit of his mouth and would destroy him with the brightness of his coming.

So connecting these two dots we can see that when the man of sin comes to his end is at Second Coming. I am saying this to establish the time frame for the following events to occur. It specifically says 'At that time,' (the second coming) these things will happen:

1) Michael stands up...

2) There will be a time of trouble...

3) Israel will be delivered...

4) Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...some to life and some to shame....

So when it says 'at that time' these events will take place, Daniel asked the angel in Daniel 12:6 this question:

"How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" So it is apparent the wonders he was asking about were all the wonders that were just shown to him...He did not ask 'How long shall it be to the end of these wonders except for the resurrection of the wicked?' No. He asked 'How long shall it be to the end of THESE wonders.

The angel then answered him saying 'It shall be for a time, times and a half: and when he (anti-christ) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED."

So the angel did not say 'All these things shall be finished at the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast except for the resurrection of the wicked...No. He said at the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast ALL these things will be finished which of course would include the resurrection of the wicked also. 

 

Blessings to you all-

 

 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/12-1.htm

Daniel 12 is talking about Daniels people. That is the resurection that takes place in Israel which is the first resurection. 

Many people don't understand me when I tell them that I would be resurrected in the second resurection. That is because I don't live within the kingdom Jesus spoke of in the gospel. 

I was born in exile and have lived my entire life in exile. Joseph had the right idea though. He made the children of Israel promise to carry his bones back into the kingdom so he wouldn't be buried in exile. He will take part in the first resurection. 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/12-1.htm

I will be resurrected 1000 years after this resurection. Not because I'm bad, but because I'm not Daniels people and I don't reside in the kingdom. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Shilohsfoal

[Shilohsfoal]

In other words. On that day, living waters don't flow to America where I live. They will flow from the Mediterranean sea to the dead sea. 

https://biblehub.com/zechariah/14-8.htm

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Daniel 12 is talking about Daniels people. That is the resurection that takes place in Israel which is the first resurection. 

There is not a resurrection for Jews and another one for Gentiles. Jesus said 'all those who God has given to me he would raise up at the last day...' all the saints that God had were given to Christ, so the resurrection of the just  is not a matter of whether you are a Jew or a Gentile, it matters whether you are a saint or not.

2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Many people don't understand me when I tell them that I would be resurrected in the second resurection. That is because I don't live within the kingdom Jesus spoke of in the gospel. 

 If you die before Jesus returns you will be in either the resurrection of the just or the resurrection of the unjust...there is no other category.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

11 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

There is not a resurrection for Jews and another one for Gentiles. Jesus said 'all those who God has given to me he would raise up at the last day...' all the saints that God had were given to Christ, so the resurrection of the just  is not a matter of whether you are a Jew or a Gentile, it matters whether you are a saint or not.

 If you die before Jesus returns you will be in either the resurrection of the just or the resurrection of the unjust...there is no other category.

 

There are two separate resurrections. The one that takes place at the beginning of the millinium and the second which takes place at the end of the millinium. 

The first is not the just or unjust and the second is not the just or unjust. 

When christ comes he will send out his angels throughout his kingdom to weed out all who offend. 

I don't live within the boundaries of his kingdom. Like Magog, Persia, Ethiopia, I don't live in Christs kingdom. These nations Iisted will I cade Christ's kingdom at the end of the millinium. I will not be one of them because I will not live another 1000 years but I will be resurrected about at that time. 

Im sure I will be buried in exile unlike Joseph who wasn't. 

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

There are two separate resurrections. The one that takes place at the beginning of the millinium and the second which takes place at the end of the millinium. 

Yes, there is one for both the just and the unjust that happens at the Second Coming....then there is another resurrection of both the just and the unjust that happens at the end of the 1000 years. The one at the end of the 1000 years pertains to those who live and die during the 1000 reign, the one that happens at the second coming pertains to those who have lived and died since Adam.  But this has nothing to do with whether you are a Jew or a Gentile.

2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

The first is not the just or unjust and the second is not the just or unjust. 

The one at the Second Coming, and the one at the end of the 1000 years is for the just and the unjust.... there is no other category you can be in. Jesus said ALL that are in the graves shall come forth...some to life and some to condemnation...Everyone was resurrected but there were only two categories.

2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

When christ comes he will send out his angels throughout his kingdom to weed out all who offend. 

Yes the only two seeds that were there were wheat (children of God) and tares (children of the devil) 

2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I don't live within the boundaries of his kingdom.

The field is the world...it doesn't matter where you live...only wheat and tares were planted in the earth and both were harvested at the end of this age...the wheat was gathered into the barn, and the tares were cast into the fire. 

 

2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Like Magog, Persia, Ethiopia, I don't live in Christs kingdom.

When Jesus comes he will resurrect those in Persia, Ethiopia, just like he will resurrect those who died in Mexico or the USA and everywhere else.