What if the true nature of God will surprise us?

[ayin jade]

47 minutes ago, Amigo42 said:

 

Hmm.  How can someone be punished for something they didn't know and didn't even realize?  Think beyond.  What if Jesus died for all souls to be saved regardless of whether they even realize or not.  God's ways are also reflected in nature.  In nature, God shines down the warmth of the sun on all people regardless of whether they believe in a Creator who made the sun.  It doesn't matter.  He still shines on them.  Food for thought.

On phone so I cant post the scripture but Romans specifically states no one has an excuse. That all of creation attests to God. 

[Amigo42]

9 minutes ago, ayin jade said:

On phone so I cant post the scripture but Romans specifically states no one has an excuse. That all of creation attests to God. 

 

So, here's the point that I'm making, and this kind of highlights that.  Sometimes tradition and religion can get in the way of common sense.  God gave all humans common sense, and to me my common sense tells me that a God of love is fair and just and wouldn't punish people for something they never even had the chance to learn simply because of where they happened to be born.  "You were born in North Korea or another communist country?  Well, too bad and too sad for you.  The gates of pearls are closed for you. keep walking down that fiery tunnel."  Sorry for the satire, but this just doesn't sound like the God that Jesus described.  

[Amigo42]

4 minutes ago, Heaven_Bound said:

The Word of God is literally Authored by God.  So we know His true Nature and we know He cannot go against what He's Inspired to write about Himself.   Basically, we have a Guarantee in writing!

I'm just being "angels advocate" here (possibly literally), but where does the Bible say it was written and authored by God himself?  Don't get wrong, I love the Bible and have grown up with it, but I don't believe everything written is literal or was even meant to be literal.  Case in point.  The story of Jonah.  How do we know this story is literal at least in terms of all aspects?  Maybe the writers simply meant for the story to be a symbolic testament to God's love and mercy.  How do we know it was meant to be understood as completely literal.  The Ninevites apparently worshipped a fish god as one of their primary deities, so maybe the story about being swallowed up by a fish was a symbolic representation.

[Jayne]

29 minutes ago, Amigo42 said:

 

So, here's the point that I'm making, and this kind of highlights that.  Sometimes tradition and religion can get in the way of common sense.  God gave all humans common sense, and to me my common sense tells me that a God of love is fair and just and wouldn't punish people for something they never even had the chance to learn simply because of where they happened to be born.  "You were born in North Korea or another communist country?  Well, too bad and too sad for you.  The gates of pearls are closed for you. keep walking down that fiery tunnel."  Sorry for the satire, but this just doesn't sound like the God that Jesus described.  

Hmmm....I just answered that.  

You are saying that WHERE a person is born determines their eternal fate.  The Bible does not say that.  That's your incorrect opinion.  You absolutely give God no credit at all for reaching people in places that YOU think are unreachable.

The verse she is speaking of is Romans 1:18-21 = "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been seen clearly, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

She is saying, I am saying, and the Bible is saying that people are condemned by what they know of God and their rejection of him.

All creation is pointing to God, says the Bible in this above verse.  So much, in fact, that it says that people are without excuse.

The Philippian jailer's attention was drawn to God by that earthquake.  He then came to know Christ.

Give God some credit to BE Almighty God and save people by faith in Christ in ways that you could not dream of.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Jayne

[Jayne]

12 minutes ago, Amigo42 said:

I'm just being "angels advocate" here (possibly literally), but where does the Bible say it was written and authored by God himself?  Don't get wrong, I love the Bible and have grown up with it, but I don't believe everything written is literal or was even meant to be literal.  Case in point.  The story of Jonah.  How do we know this story is literal at least in terms of all aspects?  Maybe the writers simply meant for the story to be a symbolic testament to God's love and mercy.  How do we know it was meant to be understood as completely literal.  The Ninevites apparently worshipped a fish god as one of their primary deities, so maybe the story about being swallowed up by a fish was a symbolic representation.

How do we know the story of Jonah was true?

For me, it's because Jesus Christ, in the New Testament, said it was true.

Where does the Bible say that it was written and authored by God himself?

• Exodus 24:4 - " And Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord".  That's Genesis through Deuteronomy.
• 2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness"  ALL Scripture.  That's Genesis through Revelation
• 2 Peter 1:21 -"For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."  Prophecy.  That's the Bible.

 

[Amigo42]

20 minutes ago, Heaven_Bound said:

There's nothing that claims if a person lives in a country where there's no tv, radio, newspapers, allows missionaries, that these people are going to be judged for choosing to deny God.   The Leadership will, but the Bible is clear enough that everyone will hear or be introduced to Christ one way or another.   But I guarantee there are Bibles in North Korea.   I would have no doubts the Word of God gets spread by oral tradition.   It's happening even if we think it is not.

There might be some Bibles in North Korea, but God is not going to judge someone who never learned of him in the same way that he would for someone say in America who has access to Bibles freely.

[Amigo42]

8 minutes ago, Jayne said:

How do we know the story of Jonah was true?

For me, it's because Jesus Christ, in the New Testament, said it was true.

Where does the Bible say that it was written and authored by God himself?

• Exodus 24:4 - " And Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord".  That's Genesis through Deuteronomy.
• 2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness"  ALL Scripture.  That's Genesis through Revelation
• 2 Peter 1:21 -"For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."  Prophecy.  That's the Bible.

 

 

 

Most of here including myself are not experts in Biblical studies, but in the academic world the view of even Christian academics varies from the theological perspective.  For example, in some Biblical circles of academic study, it is believe that the the Books of Moses were actually a compilation of material from various priestly and scribal sources.  I believe the sources are J, P,H, and E as the generic names.  I'm not sure.  However, if you talk to a well informed atheist they can point out what appear to be two different stories in the Bible which is not really a big deal to me, but for some they might be surprised.  Again, I don't think it's a big deal even if true.  Did Moses literally pen the five books of the OT?  I highly doubt it though his priestly descendants may have.  Also, some of what we might consider scripture may have been intended as just moral lessons. Later generations interpreted them to be literal.  The Bible is wonderful, but it's also not a singular book.  It's a collection of stories, prophecies, laws, and etc. written by different authors over hundreds of years and yet it resonates with a singular voice.  That is the work of God no doubt.  However, I think people can get tripped up if they try to make it too literal from a fundamentalist understanding.  Former Christians like Bart Ehrman took it to a completely different level as he got tripped up over a very basic writing.  He saw in the book of Mark where Abiathar the priest was attributed to something different than the Old Testament said. I think the OT mentions his son did something, whereas the NT says it was him.  I don't remember the details, but the point is Mr. Ehrman let himself get tripped up by something that simple because he put all his faith in a book instead realizing that only God is perfect.  Anyway, just my five cents.  I don't know it all.  Only God does.

[Amigo42]

37 minutes ago, Heaven_Bound said:

2nd Timothy  16 All scripture is given by [[[inspiration of God]]], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The irony is that at the time of that writing Paul didn't consider his own writings to be "scripture."  He just considered them to be letters to the followers of Jesus that he had led to Christ.  It wasn't till later generations that his letters were considered scripture, but in reality he was just a person like you or I who was inspired by God, though at the time he would not have considered his words to be infallible.

[B-B]

5 hours ago, Amigo42 said:

Jesus's central message is that God is love.

Hi @Amigo42 😊

Would you mind clarifying what you mean here, when you state that the central message is love. Please could you share your understanding of what God's love is?

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by B-B

[B-B]

5 hours ago, Amigo42 said:

Some people have no faith at all, but they may be more virtuous than the most ardent believer.

This is true ... However, a person without faith cannot please God.

Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. 

 

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

 

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

 

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

 

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 

16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

 

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,” 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.

 

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command.

24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.

 

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

32And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35Women received their dead raised to life again.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, [k]were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

39And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Edited May 24, 2022 by B-B