AdHoc Posted June 24, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,051 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 1,460 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 24, 2022 4 hours ago, iamlamad said: If He is outside the door, it should be obvious they are not born again. This is showing us people PLAYING CHURCH, but not entering into the body of Christ by becoming born again and maturing from a baby Christian. Let's stick with pertinent passages: what did Paul tell us? The dead "in Christ" will rise first. Then those who are "in Christ" remaining alive when Jesus comes will be caught up and changed. You conveniently forgot the word "TOGETHER". The dead RISE and TOGETHER with the living they are caught away! If the Holy Spirit calls them a Church, they are a Church. The word "Ekklesia" means "gathering of called-out ones". They are all real born-again Christians. 4 hours ago, iamlamad said: Jesus USES His "two edged sword" at Armageddon. At believers? NO! At those who assembled to fight Him. Armageddon was never mentioned. Revelation 1:16 and Hebrews 4:12 were mentioned - where Christians were addressed. 4 hours ago, iamlamad said: There have always (since the church began) those who hear the message, believe the message, and get born again and become a part of the body of Christ on earth. Others don't hear the right message, so many of these never get born again, but imagine they are "Christian" and are a follower of Christ. They may "follow" Christ but have never come into the family of Christ by being born again. Would you care to name one. I thought that when the Holy Spirit says that they are Christians, believers, servants - they are just that. There are of course the Tares, but they are never called anything else but Tares. The are never half-Wheat-half-Tares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 25, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 25, 2022 17 hours ago, AdHoc said: You conveniently forgot the word "TOGETHER". The dead RISE and TOGETHER with the living they are caught away! If the Holy Spirit calls them a Church, they are a Church. The word "Ekklesia" means "gathering of called-out ones". They are all real born-again Christians. Armageddon was never mentioned. Revelation 1:16 and Hebrews 4:12 were mentioned - where Christians were addressed. Would you care to name one. I thought that when the Holy Spirit says that they are Christians, believers, servants - they are just that. There are of course the Tares, but they are never called anything else but Tares. The are never half-Wheat-half-Tares. Yes, of course, after the bodies of the dead in Christ are risen then after those who are alive are caught up, then TOGETHER we rise up to meet Christ in the air. I think we agree here. Quote 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. In the previous verses Jesus is speaking to the church in general, but in verse 20, He is getting personal. If any [one single] man hears Him. Believers have been using this verse to lead people to Christ for a very long time. I think you are stretching it to say they were all born again because they were "called out." Many people attend church but are not born agian. Jesus is still on the outside (of their heart) because they have not invited Him in. You seem to picture Christ as angry at His true church. I don't. He LOVES His true church - the born again ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted June 25, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,051 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 1,460 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, iamlamad said: You seem to picture Christ as angry at His true church. I don't. He LOVES His true church - the born again ones. You've interchanged two emotions. Love is one and anger is another. Never mind. What I'm interested is then why you think Peter the Apostle is not born again. After all, he denied the Lord three times, and in Galatians 2 Paul accused him; "... that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, ... ." (Ga 2:14) By your definition Peter must join the 80-90% of the 7 Churches who, although the Holy Spirit calls them Churches, are imposters. But then again Paul must also fall into that category, for against the prophecy of accredited prophets, and his own teaching on the Law, he went down to Jerusalem to complete a vow according to Law, and it ended his ministry of "tent-building". He never raised up a Church again after that. I mean ... (i) disobedient to his own spirit (he went "bound" instead of with "liberty"), (ii) disobedient to his own teaching on the Law, (iii) disobedient to a Church who spoke by the Spirit, (iv) disobedient to Agabus, an accredited prophet in the presence of 4 established prophetesses, (v) going to Jerusalem when he had been sent to the Gentiles, and (vi) ending the fruit of ministry in building Churches. And we have no mention of him ever repenting. Surely Paul must fall into the same category as you have judged 90% of seven Churches. Edited June 25, 2022 by AdHoc spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 25, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 25, 2022 3 hours ago, AdHoc said: You've interchanged two emotions. Love is one and anger is another. Never mind. What I'm interested is then why you think Peter the Apostle is not born again. After all, he denied the Lord three times, and in Galatians 2 Paul accused him; "... that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, ... ." (Ga 2:14) By your definition Peter must join the 80-90% of the 7 Churches who, although the Holy Spirit calls them Churches, are imposters. But then again Paul must also fall into that category, for against the prophecy of accredited prophets, and his own teaching on the Law, he went down to Jerusalem to complete a vow according to Law, and it ended his ministry of "tent-building". He never raised up a Church again after that. I mean ... (i) disobedient to his own spirit (he went "bound" instead of with "liberty"), (ii) disobedient to his own teaching on the Law, (iii) disobedient to a Church who spoke by the Spirit, (iv) disobedient to Agabus, an accredited prophet in the presence of 4 established prophetesses, (v) going to Jerusalem when he had been sent to the Gentiles, and (vi) ending the fruit of ministry in building Churches. And we have no mention of him ever repenting. Surely Paul must fall into the same category as you have judged 90% of seven Churches. Peter, along with the rest of the 120, got born again when Jesus breathed on them and said for them to receive. It should not come as a shock to you that believers - the born again ones - do sin. Thank God for 1 John 1:9! Paul was OBEYING the Holy Spirit. God was only using the prophets to alert Paul to what was ahead for him. Many people think Paul missed it. I don't. Paul knew in advance. Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. It would be almost inconceivable that Ananias would not tell Paul. Jesus considers His true church as His bride. He is not angry with His bride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted June 26, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,051 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 1,460 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 26, 2022 11 hours ago, iamlamad said: Peter, along with the rest of the 120, got born again when Jesus breathed on them and said for them to receive. It should not come as a shock to you that believers - the born again ones - do sin. Thank God for 1 John 1:9! Paul was OBEYING the Holy Spirit. God was only using the prophets to alert Paul to what was ahead for him. Many people think Paul missed it. I don't. Paul knew in advance. Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. It would be almost inconceivable that Ananias would not tell Paul. Jesus considers His true church as His bride. He is not angry with His bride. In your argument concerning the seven Churches, about 85% of which are rebuked by our Lord, you maintained that they were not born again. I showed you that Peter sinned as grievously as they did and thus, by your argument, must also be not born again. After all, you would not apply two standards, or at least you would not intimate that God applies two standards and that Peter can sin at will while Ephesus are not born again believers because they once loved Christ but grew cold through the effort of service to Him. If you attribute Christ's rebuke to be because the Churches are not born again. How then do you make Peter born again? But the matter compounds itself, because you attribute rebirth to WORKS. "I know your WORKS" (6 times). The standard you set for being born again is works. But I think we actually agree, for you say that born again believers still sin. Can we not then agree that it is Churches that are rebuked. And it is Churches that are apostate. As to Paul, God's words to Ananias are no proof of Paul's obedience. God only prophesied what Paul would do for Him. Much more is the evidence. Paul "hastens because of the Feast of Pentecost", but he writes in Galatians 4:9-11 that, 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Paul admits he goes "bound in spirit" (Act.20:22) but writes where the spirit of the Lord is, is LIBERTY. It is NOT "bound BY the Spirit", but bound in spirit. Some translators make it to mean "compelled", but it is the same word as the woman in Luke 13 "bound" by a demon, and needed to be freed from "this bond". But I think we now agree to a measure. Christians can, and do, sin - and sin badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts