Christ`s Seat of Power and Authority.

[Marilyn C]

Christ`s Seat of Power and Authority.

 

We know from God`s word that the Godhead, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are all equal, in unity and of the same mind. However in function there is a hierarchy.

At the source there is provision by the whole Godhead, then the Father initiates, the Son administers and the Holy Spirit is the direct agency.

Thus we see that it is the Father`s desire for His Son to administer rulership over all God`s great kingdom. (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

 

Now we know that when Jesus ascended He went to the Father`s right hand on His throne.

`...far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come, and put all things under His feet...` (Eph. 1: 21 & 22)

 

The Godhead however is unseen, and dwells in unapproachable light. (1 Tim. 6: 16) Yet the Father desires that His Son will rule VISIBLY in His glorified exalted body.

The Father however has asked the Son to wait on the Father`s throne until He (the Father) has brought the Son`s enemies to His footstool, meaning for judgment. (Ps. 110: 1) (The Father has given the Son authority to execute judgment. John 5: 27)

 

Thus in the Father`s timing and appointment the Lord Jesus will be established upon His own throne, visible for angels and glorified man to see and worship.

`...a throne set in heaven...` (Rev. 4: 2)

`(Father) I have set my King on my holy hill of Mount Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6)

 

From there the judgments will begin - `And from the throne proceeded lighnings, thundering and voices.` (Rev. 4: 5)

`The LORD (Father) shall send the rod of your (Son`s) strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies.` (Ps. 110: 2)

 

What are your thoughts?

 

[Marilyn C]

[Marilyn C]

The 24 Elders.

 

`Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes and they had crowns on their heads.` (Rev. 4: 4)

 

So who are these 24 Elders?

The new song they sing gives us their identity.

`You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and have made us kings and priests to our God and we shall reign over the earth.` (Rev. 5: 9 & 10)

We note that `every tribe and tongue and people and nation` is more than 24. Thus we realise that these 24 Elders are representative of the overcomers, the Body of Christ.

Other details are important also.

Around the throne & on thrones - only for the Body of Christ. (Rev. 3: 21)

Kings and priests - only for the Body of Christ. (Rev. 1: 6)

White robes - washed in the blood of the lamb.(Rev. 5: 9)

Crowns of gold - promised (James 1: 12,  1 Thess. 2: 19,  1 Peter 5: 2 - 4,  1 Cor. 9: 24 - 27,  2 Tim. 4: 8)

 

Thus we see that the Lord the Royal (king) High Priest has His other royal (king) priests with Him. What a glorious celebration that will be, seeing the investiture of the Lord Jesus Christ in His glorified body, exalted visibly for angels and the overcomers.

 

Note all this precedes the tribulation which is when the Lord and His Body will judge the world system and fallen angels.

`Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?....Do you not know that we shall judge angels?` ( 1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

 

Any thoughts?  

 

[AdHoc]

On 5/29/2022 at 2:49 AM, Marilyn C said:

Christ`s Seat of Power and Authority.

 

We know from God`s word that the Godhead, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are all equal, in unity and of the same mind. However in function there is a hierarchy.

At the source there is provision by the whole Godhead, then the Father initiates, the Son administers and the Holy Spirit is the direct agency.

Thus we see that it is the Father`s desire for His Son to administer rulership over all God`s great kingdom. (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

 

Now we know that when Jesus ascended He went to the Father`s right hand on His throne.

`...far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come, and put all things under His feet...` (Eph. 1: 21 & 22)

 

The Godhead however is unseen, and dwells in unapproachable light. (1 Tim. 6: 16) Yet the Father desires that His Son will rule VISIBLY in His glorified exalted body.

The Father however has asked the Son to wait on the Father`s throne until He (the Father) has brought the Son`s enemies to His footstool, meaning for judgment. (Ps. 110: 1) (The Father has given the Son authority to execute judgment. John 5: 27)

 

Thus in the Father`s timing and appointment the Lord Jesus will be established upon His own throne, visible for angels and glorified man to see and worship.

`...a throne set in heaven...` (Rev. 4: 2)

`(Father) I have set my King on my holy hill of Mount Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6)

 

From there the judgments will begin - `And from the throne proceeded lighnings, thundering and voices.` (Rev. 4: 5)

`The LORD (Father) shall send the rod of your (Son`s) strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies.` (Ps. 110: 2)

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Although the Bible reveals the universal administration, its focus is not heaven. The Bible begins with the creation of heaven and earth, and then almost immediately swings its attention to the earth. A new Governor, MAN, is exquisitely created to first SUBDUE and then to RULE the earth and its environs of sea and sky.

The word "SUBDUE" implies illegal activity. Thus, the man God made was first to end and bring to order the illegal activity and then rule the earth in such a way as was suitable for God's character. This did not happen. If the times of the Old Testament are taken literally (and there is no reason not to), we stand on the earth 6,000 years later and groan at sin, death, injustice and defilement. Surely, God's reputation is at stake? Is He the ALL-mighty that He claims to be? Or will He have to bow to the tactics, mechanisms and power of one of His creature - an angel?

I propose that God's recovery process is well under way and on course, and that many students of the Bible have invented a scenario to excuse the ALL-mighty for not having produced visible improvements. They have concocted a doctrine whereby God, His Son Jesus, and a few battered men and women must retire to heaven and lick their wounds leaving nothing of the earth but a ruin to be consumed with fire. I energetically oppose this and gladly point out God's plan as far as He has revealed it in His Word.

Although the first man Adam failed abysmally, to his wife Eve was promised a MAN that would reverse all that Adam had caused. In Genesis 1:11-12 God set forth a Law. It was that any KIND which has its seed within itself would produce the same KIND. Thus, the Bible, having promised "the SEED of the woman", is about a MAN. Because of the circumstances of His conception (Matt.1:18; Lk.1:35), this Man is also God - by the same Law of KINDS. But it is to noted that in three of four gospels and the remainder of the New Testament, His HUMANITY is thrust forward. Jesus Christ , except in Johns gospel, never calls Himself the Son of God. Other's did, but He always answered with "The Son of MAN". Through the great flood, war, murder, homosexuality and bestiality - all aimed at eradicating the SEED of the woman, God still got His MAN.

This Man Jesus faced a daunting task. The vehicle that God had chosen to launch His new government of MEN - the nation of Israel - was ina state of ruin when Jesus arrived. Ten of twelve Tribes where dispersed. 97% of the remaining two never returned from captivity. The remainder were sick, dying, demon possessed and ruled by the might of a Gentile nation - Rome. But their greatest failing was that in spite of over 330 prophecies fulfilled before their eyes, they rejected their Savior and murdered Him. This nation, now 2,000 years old, that should have have embraced and crowned their King, set God's clock back to zero.

But God not only is not taken by surprise, but His following actions display His utter supremacy over every situation. Taking the murder of His Son Jesus by the Jews as a Substitutionary death God, in one momentous action, provided Himself the JUDICIAL RIGHT to forgive men their sin and sins. And from 120 disciples left, the followers of Christ, called "the Christians" by outsiders, and "The New MAN" by God, grew to a formidable company - not politically or militarily, but morally. God now had the beginnings of a new Company of MEN with which to build a royal household. Through the following 2,000 years, men, mostly weak and insignificant, were subject to a rigorous training so that God could supply the cities of the earth with kings when the time came.

But just as God raised up MEN for His coming Kingdom, many of His disciples grew weary and impatient. Their faith flagged when god took His time. And within the first hundred years of the Church a terrible rot had set in. Israel's ruin was repeated. After 2,000 years of Christianity, its faith, patience and morality lay in ruins and Christ was ready to vomit it out of His mouth. But again, God is not surprised. From the very beginning He sets forth a REWARD for faith and diligence among His own - that they may rule and reign in fame and power together with Christ for the period of time it takes Christ to SUBDUE God's enemies - 1,000 years as it turns out.

The prophet Daniel, speaking to Gentile kings, sets forth the immutable truth of a universal change of government on earth in due time. This age of a New Government will start when Jesus return PHYSICALLY. Having offered the world peace and reconciliation with God for two millennia, men choose another king - a Gentile, ruthless, unrighteous war-mongering imposter. God's patience with men is over. He gathers the combined armies of the world to Jezreel and pits them against "the Son of MAN" (Mk.14:62). The beginning of SUBDUING God's enemies will have begun with blood flowing up to the horses' bridles at Megiddo.

But though this battle be historic, a greater battle was won nearly 2,000 early. The "Son of God" has the power to lay down His life and take it up again TOGETHER with whom He wanted to. And so the Church is raised from the dead and those few who had followed Christ in His bitter way, are made CO-KINGS with Christ over cities of the earth (Lk.19:17-19). But Jesus is Maker and King of Israel. They are His POSSESSION. And Israel, though having NO JUDICIAL leg to stand on, are met with MERCY from a King Who had a COVENANT with them. They too are raised from the dead, gathered from their dispersion and installed in their Promised Land. Jesus, rightful HEIR to Israel's throne by THREE legal ways, sets His throne in Jerusalem from which He rules Israel and the world.

While Christians believed a fable of a beaten God Who must drag a few battered Christians to heaven and burn the earth, God, through His MAN - Jesus, has been active on the highest level preparing a royal family to bring equitous government and blessing to the bulk of men ON EARTH. Jerusalem is now the hallowed Capital of the earth. Emmanuel - "God WITH us" is King over all. The first 1,000 years of His reign is used to meet, one by one, and defeat, god's enemies. Magog will test the new Kingdom with ahuge army at the end of the thousand years - and fail miserably. And then, with billions of souls in Hades, the last enemy is met and defeated - DEATH. "The rest of the dead" are raised, and "there is NO MORE death". And with ALL SUBDUED including death, Jesus can offer His Father an EARTH brought to order.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Co 15:26–28)

[Marilyn C]

Hi Ad Hoc,

have to go out soon, but short reply first. Agree with much of what you say but some I will address later.

Meanwhile what do you believe about the Lord`s authority as stated in Eph. 1: 20 & 21?

Marilyn. 

[AdHoc]

On 5/31/2022 at 2:41 AM, Marilyn C said:

The 24 Elders.

 

`Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes and they had crowns on their heads.` (Rev. 4: 4)

 

So who are these 24 Elders?

The new song they sing gives us their identity.

`You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and have made us kings and priests to our God and we shall reign over the earth.` (Rev. 5: 9 & 10)

We note that `every tribe and tongue and people and nation` is more than 24. Thus we realise that these 24 Elders are representative of the overcomers, the Body of Christ.

Other details are important also.

Around the throne & on thrones - only for the Body of Christ. (Rev. 3: 21)

Kings and priests - only for the Body of Christ. (Rev. 1: 6)

White robes - washed in the blood of the lamb.(Rev. 5: 9)

Crowns of gold - promised (James 1: 12,  1 Thess. 2: 19,  1 Peter 5: 2 - 4,  1 Cor. 9: 24 - 27,  2 Tim. 4: 8)

 

Thus we see that the Lord the Royal (king) High Priest has His other royal (king) priests with Him. What a glorious celebration that will be, seeing the investiture of the Lord Jesus Christ in His glorified body, exalted visibly for angels and the overcomers.

 

Note all this precedes the tribulation which is when the Lord and His Body will judge the world system and fallen angels.

`Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?....Do you not know that we shall judge angels?` ( 1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

 

Any thoughts?  

 

There is another possibility.

Since we are forbidden to interpret the Bible privately (2nd Pet.1:20) we must explain scripture with scripture. Twenty-four is not the number of God's people. The only other place where the number twenty-four refers to God's people is the "courses" that David instituted for service to the Temple that his son Solomon built. But first we must offer an alternative to the supposed song of Revelation 5. Note the grammar.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

(1) In verse 8 the 24 Elders carried vials full of perfume. And this perfume was the incense that accompanied the prayers of the saints. This was the duty of the High Priest at the Altar of Incense. Therefore, the 24 Elders are not saints, but servants of the saints. If they were saints they would be carrying their own prayers.

(2) Verse 9 starts with "and". "And" is a conjunction. It joins things, it can add things and it can indicate a sequence. In verse 9 it introduces a new song. But the previous verse spoke only of the "prayers" of the saints. Could it be that the conjunction "and" introduces a new and additional thing belonging to the saints? That is, the "they" refers to the last mentioned subject - the saints (NOT THE ELDERS). Example; "The servants had the shoes of the swimmers and they were shivering". Who was shivering? The servants or the swimmers?

(3) If we trace the 24 Elders, they were already in heaven and had crowns when John arrived. Moreover, they SAT in the presence of the One on the Throne while the Lamb STOOD (v.6). This would indicate high rank, familiarity with the presence of God. Their action of casting their crowns down shows kings "abdicating". But how did they get crowns BEFORE Jesus - unless they had governmental function BEFORE Jesus.

It's 2 a.m. here. I'll leave this to be chewed on and finish later today.

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

There is another possibility.

Since we are forbidden to interpret the Bible privately (2nd Pet.1:20) we must explain scripture with scripture. Twenty-four is not the number of God's people. The only other place where the number twenty-four refers to God's people is the "courses" that David instituted for service to the Temple that his son Solomon built. But first we must offer an alternative to the supposed song of Revelation 5. Note the grammar.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

(1) In verse 8 the 24 Elders carried vials full of perfume. And this perfume was the incense that accompanied the prayers of the saints. This was the duty of the High Priest at the Altar of Incense. Therefore, the 24 Elders are not saints, but servants of the saints. If they were saints they would be carrying their own prayers.

(2) Verse 9 starts with "and". "And" is a conjunction. It joins things, it can add things and it can indicate a sequence. In verse 9 it introduces a new song. But the previous verse spoke only of the "prayers" of the saints. Could it be that the conjunction "and" introduces a new and additional thing belonging to the saints? That is, the "they" refers to the last mentioned subject - the saints (NOT THE ELDERS). Example; "The servants had the shoes of the swimmers and they were shivering". Who was shivering? The servants or the swimmers?

(3) If we trace the 24 Elders, they were already in heaven and had crowns when John arrived. Moreover, they SAT in the presence of the One on the Throne while the Lamb STOOD (v.6). This would indicate high rank, familiarity with the presence of God. Their action of casting their crowns down shows kings "abdicating". But how did they get crowns BEFORE Jesus - unless they had governmental function BEFORE Jesus.

It's 2 a.m. here. I'll leave this to be chewed on and finish later today.

Hi Ad Hoc,

You are a night owl.

The 24 relates to rulership. The 12 disciples/apostles are 12 kings. However the 24 relates to the Kingpriest office. The two offices which are ONLY in the highest realm. 

As to the new song, `they will NOT rule `on` the earth,but `epi,` OVER the earth. Check other scriptures on that topic.

Marilyn.

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

You are a night owl.

The 24 relates to rulership. The 12 disciples/apostles are 12 kings. However the 24 relates to the Kingpriest office. The two offices which are ONLY in the highest realm. 

As to the new song, `they will NOT rule `on` the earth,but `epi,` OVER the earth. Check other scriptures on that topic.

Marilyn.

Thanks for picking up the subject again. Let me just say that I regard the understanding of the 24 Elders as not crucial to our faith and so only put forth my  ideas for consideration. However, that does not mean that I would not like to get to the bottom of the matter and so approach it with unabated energy.

You have rightly pointed out that that they will rule "over" the earth. My point though was WHO will reign? My argument is that when Moses was on the Mount he received instructions to build the Tabernacle on earth according to the PATTERN of the heavenly. So also David in 1st Chronicles 28. And there we see the "courses" included. That is, if David ordered the earthly according to what he was shown by God, the tabernacle in heaven has the 24 courses as well. This is a priestly duty and service to God's dwelling. Now, in Job 38 we see that the angels sang for joy when God made the earth. Thus, we can deduce that God first made heaven, then, to uphold His holiness He made the heavenly Tabernacle. Then He made the angels to inhabit heaven and to serve Him. Thus, these angels with crowns already given would be the oldest created beings - Elders.

I propose that the 24 Elders are the chiefs of the courses in heaven, and when our Lord Jesus is crowned and made Heir of all things, they acquiesce and cast their crowns down. Carrying the prayer's of the saints is a priestly duty, but ON EARTH it was the duty of Aaron, and in heaven it is newly the duty of Jesus (see Hebrews 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 & 12). I propose that the vision John was privy to was the change in priestly duty in heaven.

Let's look at the reverse view.

1. Which saints are called Elders in heaven but not on earth?
2. Which saints may carry the other saints prayers to God in heaven?
3. If the perfume of the incense comes from the Altar of Incense is Christ, why do only few elect carry it?
4. Which saints are crowned before Jesus?
5. Which saints SIT in God's presence while the Lamb STANDS?
6. Which saints, having received their crown, will cast it away?

... and so on. The difficulties are multiple, and unless solved, preclude the theory that the Elders are Christians. It all hangs on who sand the new song - the Elders or the saints whose prayers the Elders carried? There might be one more indication - for what it's worth. In Chapter 4 note the gospel preached by the Elders in Revelation 4:11. It is the "everlasting gospel" preached by an ANGEL (Rev.14:6) - not the gospel of grace.

Anyway, something to think about even if you maintain your view.

Go well down under

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for picking up the subject again. Let me just say that I regard the understanding of the 24 Elders as not crucial to our faith and so only put forth my  ideas for consideration. However, that does not mean that I would not like to get to the bottom of the matter and so approach it with unabated energy.

You have rightly pointed out that that they will rule "over" the earth. My point though was WHO will reign? My argument is that when Moses was on the Mount he received instructions to build the Tabernacle on earth according to the PATTERN of the heavenly. So also David in 1st Chronicles 28. And there we see the "courses" included. That is, if David ordered the earthly according to what he was shown by God, the tabernacle in heaven has the 24 courses as well. This is a priestly duty and service to God's dwelling. Now, in Job 38 we see that the angels sang for joy when God made the earth. Thus, we can deduce that God first made heaven, then, to uphold His holiness He made the heavenly Tabernacle. Then He made the angels to inhabit heaven and to serve Him. Thus, these angels with crowns already given would be the oldest created beings - Elders.

I propose that the 24 Elders are the chiefs of the courses in heaven, and when our Lord Jesus is crowned and made Heir of all things, they acquiesce and cast their crowns down. Carrying the prayer's of the saints is a priestly duty, but ON EARTH it was the duty of Aaron, and in heaven it is newly the duty of Jesus (see Hebrews 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 & 12). I propose that the vision John was privy to was the change in priestly duty in heaven.

Let's look at the reverse view.

1. Which saints are called Elders in heaven but not on earth?
2. Which saints may carry the other saints prayers to God in heaven?
3. If the perfume of the incense comes from the Altar of Incense is Christ, why do only few elect carry it?
4. Which saints are crowned before Jesus?
5. Which saints SIT in God's presence while the Lamb STANDS?
6. Which saints, having received their crown, will cast it away?

... and so on. The difficulties are multiple, and unless solved, preclude the theory that the Elders are Christians. It all hangs on who sand the new song - the Elders or the saints whose prayers the Elders carried? There might be one more indication - for what it's worth. In Chapter 4 note the gospel preached by the Elders in Revelation 4:11. It is the "everlasting gospel" preached by an ANGEL (Rev.14:6) - not the gospel of grace.

Anyway, something to think about even if you maintain your view.

Go well down under

Hi Ad Hoc,

Thank you for your gracious reply and attitude. That is how we should discuss as we work through our different understandings of scripture. Now I do believe it is very important to realize the significance of the 24 Elders for I believe, (& was taught) it is the believer`s inheritance - Kingpriest. And it gives the Lord the glory for making us able to be kingpriests.

I am glad you are presenting the heavenly pattern as it is there we find the actual.

Now where do you see angels, plural with crowns?

We know that Lucifer was given the office of a king, (Isa. 14: 13) and the office of a priest, (Ez. 28: 13 & 14). He was a kingpriest. And those offices together are ONLY in the highest. On earth those offices are separate.

It is the Body of Christ that has the two offices -

`...and has made US KINGS AND PRIESTS to His God and Father.` (Rev. 1: 6)

And the Body of Christ, those kingpriests will be ON the Lord`s very own throne.

`To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on MY THRONE as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on HIS THRONE.` (Rev. 3: 21)

Now to your interesting questions.

1. On earth we know that there are elders in the Body of Christ. This is because not everyone is `older, or senior` (Heb. `presbus`). Thus the need for guidance and direction from the more mature. In heaven, all believers will be `mature` for they will `be like Christ.` ie. have His divine nature.

2. No believer on earth can `carry` another`s prayers to heaven, though we can intercede for others. In heaven all believers are kingpriests, (Rev. 1: 6) and thus can bring prayers to God from those on earth, (in the trib. etc)

3. The Golden altar is in regards to the Day of Atonement. The Lord delivering Israel. As noted previously the 24 Elders are representative of the whole Body of Christ for there are more than 24 `out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.` (Rev. 5: 9) The `24` just indicates the two offices of kingpriest and NOT the numerical number of the elders as their song indicates.

4. All saints/believers are crowned before the Lord. 

`Finally there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge will give me on that day, and not only me but also to all who have loved His appearing.` (2 Tim. 4: 8)

Also  Crown of life, (James 1: 12), Crown of rejoicing, (1 Thess. 2: 19)  Crown of Glory, (1 Peter 5: 2 - 4), Crown of Victory, (1 Cor. 9: 24 - 27). All for specific activity.

`...and cast their CROWNS before the throne,..` (Rev. 4: 10)

5. `Sitting,` denotes rest, while `standing` represents authority. (Ps. 110: 1,  Acts 7: 56, Rev. 5: 6 )

6. All saints have a crown or some crowns (as previously written above, Q.4) . And they will `cast` their crowns before the Lord showing that it was through His work that they received them. The Lord gets all the glory.

 

Hope that gives us something more to discuss. Marilyn.

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

Thank you for your gracious reply and attitude. That is how we should discuss as we work through our different understandings of scripture. Now I do believe it is very important to realize the significance of the 24 Elders for I believe, (& was taught) it is the believer`s inheritance - Kingpriest. And it gives the Lord the glory for making us able to be kingpriests.

I am glad you are presenting the heavenly pattern as it is there we find the actual.

Now where do you see angels, plural with crowns?

We know that Lucifer was given the office of a king, (Isa. 14: 13) and the office of a priest, (Ez. 28: 13 & 14). He was a kingpriest. And those offices together are ONLY in the highest. On earth those offices are separate.

It is the Body of Christ that has the two offices -

`...and has made US KINGS AND PRIESTS to His God and Father.` (Rev. 1: 6)

And the Body of Christ, those kingpriests will be ON the Lord`s very own throne.

`To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on MY THRONE as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on HIS THRONE.` (Rev. 3: 21)

Now to your interesting questions.

1. On earth we know that there are elders in the Body of Christ. This is because not everyone is `older, or senior` (Heb. `presbus`). Thus the need for guidance and direction from the more mature. In heaven, all believers will be `mature` for they will `be like Christ.` ie. have His divine nature.

2. No believer on earth can `carry` another`s prayers to heaven, though we can intercede for others. In heaven all believers are kingpriests, (Rev. 1: 6) and thus can bring prayers to God from those on earth, (in the trib. etc)

3. The Golden altar is in regards to the Day of Atonement. The Lord delivering Israel. As noted previously the 24 Elders are representative of the whole Body of Christ for there are more than 24 `out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.` (Rev. 5: 9) The `24` just indicates the two offices of kingpriest and NOT the numerical number of the elders as their song indicates.

4. All saints/believers are crowned before the Lord. 

`Finally there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge will give me on that day, and not only me but also to all who have loved His appearing.` (2 Tim. 4: 8)

Also  Crown of life, (James 1: 12), Crown of rejoicing, (1 Thess. 2: 19)  Crown of Glory, (1 Peter 5: 2 - 4), Crown of Victory, (1 Cor. 9: 24 - 27). All for specific activity.

`...and cast their CROWNS before the throne,..` (Rev. 4: 10)

5. `Sitting,` denotes rest, while `standing` represents authority. (Ps. 110: 1,  Acts 7: 56, Rev. 5: 6 )

6. All saints have a crown or some crowns (as previously written above, Q.4) . And they will `cast` their crowns before the Lord showing that it was through His work that they received them. The Lord gets all the glory.

 

Hope that gives us something more to discuss. Marilyn.

O.K. Each of us holds a belief. Our brains must hold something. I appreciate that we cannot get to the bottom of the Bible. It is too wonderful and mysterious. Instead of arguing, I aim to set forth my appreciation, with reasons, of the scene in heaven in Revelation 4, 5 and 6.

Chapter 4 starts with "things that must be HEREAFTER". "AFTER WHAT .... ?" we must ask ourselves. Well, there can only be one answer. THE FATE OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES. The last four Churches are promised by the Lord that He will come. And He will not only come, but come suddenly, swiftly and with judgment - for He has feet of brass. Laodicea has provoked the Lord to vomit and the Lord, Head and Savior is OUTSIDE the door. Well has 2nd Thessalonians 2 foretold a "falling away". So, if the Lord does come suddenly as a thief for His Churches the age of the gospel of peace and reconciliation is over. The restraint that God has shown to men is over. God's generosity has been rejected and Christ and Christians are hated by all. Men chose a Caesar for world leadership and embrace his evil, perfidy and blasphemy. God cannot wink at evil and the Substitute Jesus has been rejected in favor of an Imposter.

For the age of grace, the Man Jesus sits in His Father's Throne. But God has predicted a change of Government ON EARTH (Dan.2:35). For this matter on earth, our Lord Jesus must receive His OWN THRONE. God's plan is, in Ephesians 1:9-10

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

The dispensing of a THRONE for Jesus must embrace BOTH heaven and earth. And so the principalities in heavenly places must be witnesses to the power bestowed upon Him. The CORONATION and ENTHRONEMENT of Jesus must begin in heaven. Heaven is the seat of God's power, and now also of Christ's. In the U.S. of A., the handover of power is at the seat of power - the Capitol, So the hand over of power to Jesus must be in heaven. The WITNESSES of this change of power is witnessed by FIVE entities:

1. God, Who sits on the Throne of Heaven
2. The 24 Elders who, having already had crowns, where the administrators UNTIL Christ is invested
3. The Four Living Creatures, for God's judgment is involved and the creation, polluted by rebellion, is in danger
4. The angels, for heaven will soon shed one third of them
5. Some select men like John who must witness, testify and warn men 

In Chapter 4 our Lord Jesus receives His Throne. In Chapter 5 the previous administration, the 24 Elders, abdicate in favor of Jesus. And in Chapter 6, Jesus, Whose Kingdom is "righteousness, peace and joy" MUST START with RIGHTEOUSNESS. Men on earth have chosen evil. They have chosen an evil Caesar as king. They did not want Jesus. They cried for a Caesar. And now men must see if that Caesar can save them. The true King and Creator has orders from His Father - "as you administered my grace and patience, NOW ADMINISTER MY WRATH". And so Jesus reaches for the scroll of Seals ...