WHERE does the SPIRITUAL BODY go when the flesh dies? UP or down

[DeighAnn]

10 hours ago, Starise said:

I always seen the resurrection of those UNSAVED as only about their judgement.

I owe you an apology, but not about this, but about something else.  I stated you couldn't do something about something and I was wrong either for stating it or for doing it myself somewhere else, BUT it opened up my eyes to what you were saying and for a second I understood and first thing I thought was 'I owe you an apology', so I am sorry and I am sorry for not knowing what it is AT THE MOMENT.  I am determined to figure it out again.  Just too tired.

YES, wouldn't it be nice if I could remember what it was, I wish I could RIGHT NOW,  but I can't, but I know if I write this it will most likely come back and if I don't, it may not,  and I won't have acknowledged it or  apologized. I do know it was about something in our last few exchanges.  I knew I should have addressed it immediately but I didn't so I AM SORRY for that also.   

But I am super tired right now, but will try and pinpoint it when I wake up and let you know.  

[Starise]

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I owe you an apology, but not about this, but about something else.  I stated you couldn't do something about something and I was wrong either for stating it or for doing it myself somewhere else, BUT it opened up my eyes to what you were saying and for a second I understood and first thing I thought was 'I owe you an apology', so I am sorry and I am sorry for not knowing what it is AT THE MOMENT.  I am determined to figure it out again.  Just too tired.

YES, wouldn't it be nice if I could remember what it was, I wish I could RIGHT NOW,  but I can't, but I know if I write this it will most likely come back and if I don't, it may not,  and I won't have acknowledged it or  apologized. I do know it was about something in our last few exchanges.  I knew I should have addressed it immediately but I didn't so I AM SORRY for that also.   

But I am super tired right now, but will try and pinpoint it when I wake up and let you know.  

No apology needed. No offense taken.

My studies have taken me to a soul that goes to be with the Lord at death, although I can't say beyond all doubt that "absent from the body and present with the Lord" means we are completely with it or not in some sort of a temporary rest until we are resurrected. Many scriptures point me to the conclusion that some form of temporary rest is a given. There are those who would argue the parable of Lazarus is proof of living souls in both heaven and hell. I might change my mind. So far I see that parable as a representation of where the saved and the lost go and maybe why, but taken literally it just doesn't work for me. As I say, maybe I'll change my mind based on something else I come across.

There are also those who would point to Jesus saying to the saved thief- " This day you will be with me in paradise" as further proof. Jesus statement there doesn't necessarily mean His promise was an extension to all men and women immediately after they die. For me it's something that could go either way but probably not extended if we take all of the scriptures about rest into account.

Then we have all of the stories from people who supposedly died and came back to life telling all sorts of things. Add to this the fact many believe in ghosts which are what I believe to be not human entities. There is scarce little in the bible to support either of those notions. In the case of the witch calling up Samuel for Saul, the text seems to indicate Saul THOUGHT he seen Samuel.....or maybe God really allowed Samuel to come back to condemn Saul's actions. It is true we are told not to attempt to conjure the dead. Saul sinned greatly in doing this. Neither does the bible confirm that those who attempt to conjure the dead are actually getting what they think they are getting.

Most people will WANT to believe we are lucid and in 'heaven' immediately after death and so they will work much harder at finding scriptures to support it than those who choose to read all of the texts about dead believers resting until the Lord returns.

If you could prove  every place where the word 'rest' or sleep' is used in modern translations to describe the saved dead, those words really mean they are in heaven with God as lucid functioning persons I would buy that. So far the translations are pretty accurate. Rest means rest and sleep means sleep.

I haven't overlooked the argument some use in saying people were only in a rest before the Lord rose again and in His rising, all others did as well. So far I just don't see the support for this argument. Mainly because the rising of the saved dead is a future event according to everything I know and have studied.

For me a state of rest really makes the most sense unless someone can show me otherwise. Where ever the soul of the saved person is after death it's with the Lord. That much I can be certain of. After resurrection we are a complete person with a new body patterned from our old body but better in every way.

 

[DeighAnn]

11 minutes ago, Starise said:

For me it's something that could go either way but probably not extended if we take all of the scriptures about rest into account.

I will go look all of them up.  

 

14 minutes ago, Starise said:

After resurrection we are a complete person with a new body patterned from our old body but better in every way.

Yes, we are resurrected with a body. 

Thank you but IF YOU  happen upon me putting forth something and you think WAIT a minute PLEASE PLEASE LET ME KNOW because I have quit thinking about it because it is GONE from my memory and no need to go nuts but I would sure like to get back to it.   Thank you  I just know when I stand in judgment I don't want to be having things like this brought up, rather have them resolved here.  Have a wonderful day  

[Cntrysner]

On 9/27/2022 at 9:00 AM, Starise said:

Thanks for sharing this.

I have no doubt we are raised to a quickened mortal body as I have highlighted in your comments.

As to verse 11 in Room chapter 8.- 

What I learn by this verse-

- Our MORTAL bodies are quickened

- We will be raised in the same way Jesus was raised.

-This happens sometime in the future

We are the firstfruits, we do not wait until the harvest.

There is no such thing as a "quickened mortal body" but I gree that "our mortal bodies" will be quickened.

Rom 8:23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 

Only the mortal part of our body which is flesh will die and what supersedes it is the Spirit of life in the ascended Christ, the Spirit replaces sinful flesh in glory.

Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
 
Joh 6:53  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 
Joh 6:61  When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 
Joh 6:62  What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 
Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.  

This quickening happens spiritually and will happen literally to the body, at the moment of our death. The penalty, death of the mortal flesh, will not be given back or reconstituted.

 To stop at the resurrected Christ is not continuing to follow Christ. Christ died for us so we as believers do not have to pay the penalty of sin which is death. We move on from death and resurrection of the earthly body because we already died and rose again in Christ thus being freed from death and must now follow the ascended Christ by His Spirit.

Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

2Co 5:16  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 
2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The appearance of Jesus’ resurrected body changed at His ascension. His appearance to Paul and His return to earth are examples of His glorified body which is our prototype. 

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 
 

[Starise]

5 minutes ago, Cntrysner said:

We are the firstfruits, we do not wait until the harvest.

There is no such thing as a "quickened mortal body" but I gree that "our mortal bodies" will be quickened.

Rom 8:23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 

Only the mortal part of our body which is flesh will die and what supersedes it is the Spirit of life in the ascended Christ, the Spirit replaces sinful flesh in glory.

Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
 
Joh 6:53  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 
Joh 6:61  When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 
Joh 6:62  What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 
Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.  

This quickening happens spiritually and will happen literally to the body, at the moment of our death. The penalty, death of the mortal flesh, will not be given back or reconstituted.

 To stop at the resurrected Christ is not continuing to follow Christ. Christ died for us so we as believers do not have to pay the penalty of sin which is death. We move on from death and resurrection of the earthly body because we already died and rose again in Christ thus being freed from death and must now follow the ascended Christ by His Spirit.

Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

2Co 5:16  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 
2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The appearance of Jesus’ resurrected body changed at His ascension. His appearance to Paul and His return to earth are examples of His glorified body which is our prototype. 

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 
 

A few thoughts on this-

Jesus maintained the same scars He had when He died as Thomas doubted He was really Jesus and had to be shown those scars which appeared on the new body.

If Jesus body had been a completely new body I don't believe scars would have been apparent.

All of those who were raised about the same time as Jesus and walked around to testify came from the graves which would not have been necessary had they received bodies that did not come from their previous bodies.

Jesus tomb was empty meaning he used that same body reconstituted.

The fact that the bodies of all believers with a few exceptions are still in their respective places of rest points to a process that hasn't been completed as of yet.

The best way I can describe what I read is these old bodies are templates for the new ones, or maybe as they would be had we never sinned.

And for me, the resurrection always comes up because that's when I see our complete redemption.

We are redone, revamped, remade, reconstituted at that time as near as I can see from scripture. And of course this does affect the way I see the timing of it. 

I am willing to say that 'some part' of us goes to be with the Lord immediately, but I could be wrong even about this because souls can be kept or preserved anywhere.

God is omniscient and omnipresent in a very complicated relationship of three, so we could be "with God" anywhere really.

 

[Cntrysner]

On 9/28/2022 at 1:40 PM, Starise said:

A few thoughts on this-

Jesus maintained the same scars He had when He died as Thomas doubted He was really Jesus and had to be shown those scars which appeared on the new body.

If Jesus body had been a completely new body I don't believe scars would have been apparent.

Jesus had not yet ascended (transfigured) at the time He dealt with doubting Thomas and His body was still flesh and bone because it did not see corruption. 
From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively “metamorphose”): - change, transfigure, transform. 

 

On 9/28/2022 at 1:40 PM, Starise said:

All of those who were raised about the same time as Jesus and walked around to testify came from the graves which would not have been necessary had they received bodies that did not come from their previous bodies.

Very logical, a mortal body is tripartite yet the flesh decays therefore we know that one can exist without flesh. 

On 9/28/2022 at 1:40 PM, Starise said:

Jesus tomb was empty meaning he used that same body reconstituted.

Reconstitution was not necessary because the body of Jesus did not decay. Jesus descended as the Spirit without and unveiled by His body of flesh and bone then He returned to his body of flesh.

 

On 9/28/2022 at 1:40 PM, Starise said:

The fact that the bodies of all believers with a few exceptions are still in their respective places of rest points to a process that hasn't been completed as of yet.

For some I would agree but for others we are complete in the ascended body of Christ by His Spirit referred to as the high or upward calling of God in Christ Jesus. Our flesh is dead to sin but we are still alive by the Spirit.
 

 

On 9/28/2022 at 1:40 PM, Starise said:

The best way I can describe what I read is these old bodies are templates for the new ones, or maybe as they would be had we never sinned.

Flesh is a veil, like clothing that we wear that covers our form or true self, we are still alive, not just a puff of air, with a form when we exit the flesh. 

 

On 9/28/2022 at 1:40 PM, Starise said:

And for me, the resurrection always comes up because that's when I see our complete redemption.

There will be a resurrection and God is long suffering that all would accept His Son. Completion is in the culmination when all things will be delivered up to God the Father of us all.  I would add that logically flesh in any form by it’s self can not travel through the cosmos. 

1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
 

On 9/28/2022 at 1:40 PM, Starise said:

We are redone, revamped, remade, reconstituted at that time as near as I can see from scripture. And of course this does affect the way I see the timing of it. 

We become a new creature which is not of this world. The new creature undergoes two operations of God. One is baptism by the Spirit and the other is circumcision of the flesh.

1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Col 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:   

On 9/28/2022 at 1:40 PM, Starise said:

I am willing to say that 'some part' of us goes to be with the Lord immediately, but I could be wrong even about this because souls can be kept or preserved anywhere.

When the Spirit indwells us He will never leave and we then are not our own but slaves to righteousness and no longer of the flesh. This new creature, unveiled by flesh, which can not be seen goes to be with the lord.
 

 

On 9/28/2022 at 1:40 PM, Starise said:

God is omniscient and omnipresent in a very complicated relationship of three, so we could be "with God" anywhere really.

The kingdom of God is not of this world and neither are we.
 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Cntrysner

[DeighAnn]

BODIES IN HEAVEN, I still say yes while the world says no, but I keep finding MORE BODIES and I don't see anyone giving any more 'spirit' only so.....anyhow TODAY I was reading and I noticed

 

Rev 7 where the four angels are holding the four winds of the earth, until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads, that's the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel ALONG WITH a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues

And what did I read?  WHAT did he see?  That great multitude

THEY stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, THAT WOULD BE IN HEAVEN

THEY were clothed with white robes,

THEY HAD palms in their hands. 

And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 

THIS IS FOR SURE IN HEAVEN

THEY are the ONES WHO came out of great tribulation,

THEY have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

AND THEY are before the throne of God

AND THEY serve him day and night in his temple

 

THEY ARE STANDING,
THEY ARE DRESSED AND BEST OF ALL,
THEY HAVE PALMS IN THEIR HANDS. 



NOW IF THAT ISN'T IN 'spiritual bodies'

then I don't think ANYTHING WRITTEN will ever be enough.  

 

I know with what body do they come,  wasn't enough

nor 

raised in a spiritual body

nor 

graves were opened and bodies were seen

nor

when He shall appear we will be like Him

nor

fell at his feet, the fellow servant and brethren of the prophets

nor 

the robes for those under the altar

nor

the crying out 'how long' 

nor 

 Jesus died and rose again, even so them

nor

follow Me

nor

I pray they be where I am

nor

never die

but maybe, just maybe A MULTITUDE STANDING IN ROBES WITH PALMS IN THEIR HANDS WILL 'SOUND' ENOUGH LIKE BODIES TO GET RID OF everyone who never dies HAVING THEIR SPIRITUAL BODIES BEING  'RESURRECTED OUT FROM THE DEAD'.  

One can hope.