Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

The rapture is the catching away of those who have not seen or gone through death.  They are changed in a twinkling of an eye. 

In typical pre-trib thinking, the "rapture" is the living believers caught up to the dead saints that accompanied Jesus to earth and then Jesus taking ALL of them back up to heaven.  Yes, all living believers when Jesus returns will be "caught up together with THEM (all the dead saints who accompany Jesus) in the air/clouds.  1 Thess 4:17 

You said: "The dead in Christ must be raised first.  That is at the end of the MK.  This is the time of the last day that Jesus spoke of."

I have to disagree with you.  The single resurrection of ALL believers occurs "when He comes", as 1 Cor 15:23 says plainly.  "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

All references to the "coming of Jesus" in the NT are a reference to His Second Advent, since the OT prophesied about ONLY two advents.  There are not more than 2.

" This is John 6:35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The last day is the day after which there is no other day."

Actually, there are a number of "last days".  Could be the last day before the start of the tribulation, or the last day of the tribulation, or the last day of the MK.  So context must determine which of these is meant.

What is clear from Scripture is that Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation to actually end it and set up His MK and reign for 1,000 years, with all the saved people who have glorified bodies.

Who survives the tribulation?  Since all living believers are glorified "when He comes", only mortal unbelievers are left to re-populate the earth.  This explains WHY there will be such a worldwide rebellion at the end of the MK.  And all the living unbelievers will be killed, since Heb 9:27 says that "it is appointed for man to die ONCE, and then the judgment."

All believers will be judged at the Bema, which will be at the beginning of the MK.

All unbelievers will be resurrected to appear before the GWT judgment, and then cast into the LOF.

[FreeGrace]

4 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

First fruits in Rev 14 looks to be more detail . . . more detail to the resurrections of the saved and unsaved, that is, more detail to the resurrection of the saved.

Ch 14 can easily be a 'look ahead' chapter; of what's to come.  Not every chapter in Revelation is sequential.  This is one of them.

You said:  "Okay, I'm not sure why you don't want to look at the OT for the basis of the first fruits mentioned in Rev 14 . . . you just referenced Daniel!  But there it is - 144,000 that are clearly not Christ Himself (they do have Christ in them), being present to God.  This is just like all the first fruits in various OT places, where it is stated they be brought directly into the temple."

I don't see any need.  The sequence of end times is easily seen in the NT.  Yes, I cited Dan 12:2 to prove that there are just 2 resurrections total;  one for the saved and one for the lost.  And there are 2 in the NT as well:  John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  

Yes, the OT does mention "firstfruits", all in reference to LITERAL harvests.  But the Bible does NOT reference any resurrection as a harvest, so I don't see why "first fruit" in connection with the resurrection of the saved can be any other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

"An if there are more first fruits than Christ Himself, by definition there must be others that ripen later."

I think that is an assumption.  In the context of resurrection, there is only 1 "firstfruit", which is Jesus Christ.  

As to the 144K, since they are Jews, they could be the "firstfruits" of evangelism during the tribulation.  That would make sense.  I don't see any connection with resurrection.

[Vine Abider]

1 minute ago, FreeGrace said:

I have to disagree with you.  The single resurrection of ALL believers occurs "when He comes", as 1 Cor 15:23 says plainly.  "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

 

I've been looking at this verse (1 Cor 15:23) in Greek and various translations.  The word "firstfruit" appears to be singular and is many times rendered that way.  The verse just seems to be saying Christ is the one who is resurrected first, then others will follow at His coming.  I don't think this is precluding multiple rapture events.

Also, it's interesting that the phrasing of 1 Thes 4:17 says, "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Why say "remain," if there was not an earlier (first fruit) rapture (at the throne)?

[Vine Abider]

8 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

 

Yes, the OT does mention "firstfruits", all in reference to LITERAL harvests.  But the Bible does NOT reference any resurrection as a harvest, so I don't see why "first fruit" in connection with the resurrection of the saved can be any other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

"An if there are more first fruits than Christ Himself, by definition there must be others that ripen later."

I think that is an assumption.  In the context of resurrection, there is only 1 "firstfruit", which is Jesus Christ.  

As to the 144K, since they are Jews, they could be the "firstfruits" of evangelism during the tribulation.  That would make sense.  I don't see any connection with resurrection.

HARVEST IN NT:

“The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.” Matt 9:38

"Let both grow together until the harvest." "The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels." Matt 13:30 & 39

"And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe." Rev 14:15

Isn't it interesting that Rev 14 starts with 144,000 first fruits and ends with a harvest?

The two chapters referring to 144,000 are Rev 7 and 14.  Chapter 7 is very clearly Jews.  The firstfruits  in Rev 14 are described quite differently.

[seeking the lost]

48 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

That is one picture (wheat).  So why the mention of first fruits in multiple places in the OT, which are brought directly into the temple, and the first fruits in Revelation 14?

You do see that the first ones gathered are cast into the winepress of the wrath of God, don't you? 

Rev14: 17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

[Vine Abider]

9 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

You do see that the first ones gathered are cast into the winepress of the wrath of God, don't you? 

Rev14: 17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Don't think so . . . the first gathered in verse 15 is the harvest, which goes up to the son of man in the clouds:

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one glike a son of man, hwith a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel icame out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, j“Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for kthe harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, lthe angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, mfor its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great nwinepress of the wrath of God. 20 And othe winepress was trodden poutside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as qa horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia.3

Three things in chapter 14:  1) The first fruits go to the throne; 2) the harvest goes to meet the Lord in the clouds; 3) the gathering into the winepress of the wrath of God.

So, isn't it interesting that the chapter starts with first fruits (multiple, as in 144,000) being taken to the throne, then a little later there's a harvest of believers to the Lord in the clouds?

[seeking the lost]

58 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

In typical pre-trib thinking, the "rapture" is the living believers caught up to the dead saints that accompanied Jesus to earth and then Jesus taking ALL of them back up to heaven.  Yes, all living believers when Jesus returns will be "caught up together with THEM (all the dead saints who accompany Jesus) in the air/clouds.  1 Thess 4:17 

You said: "The dead in Christ must be raised first.  That is at the end of the MK.  This is the time of the last day that Jesus spoke of."

I have to disagree with you.  The single resurrection of ALL believers occurs "when He comes", as 1 Cor 15:23 says plainly.  "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

All references to the "coming of Jesus" in the NT are a reference to His Second Advent, since the OT prophesied about ONLY two advents.  There are not more than 2.

" This is John 6:35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The last day is the day after which there is no other day."

Actually, there are a number of "last days".  Could be the last day before the start of the tribulation, or the last day of the tribulation, or the last day of the MK.  So context must determine which of these is meant.

What is clear from Scripture is that Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation to actually end it and set up His MK and reign for 1,000 years, with all the saved people who have glorified bodies.

Who survives the tribulation?  Since all living believers are glorified "when He comes", only mortal unbelievers are left to re-populate the earth.  This explains WHY there will be such a worldwide rebellion at the end of the MK.  And all the living unbelievers will be killed, since Heb 9:27 says that "it is appointed for man to die ONCE, and then the judgment."

All believers will be judged at the Bema, which will be at the beginning of the MK.

All unbelievers will be resurrected to appear before the GWT judgment, and then cast into the LOF.

I am just following Revelation which gives the time of the resurrection as being at the end of the thousand years.   LAST DAY!

[seeking the lost]

5 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Don't think so . . . the first gathered in verse 15 is the harvest, which goes up to the son of man in the clouds:

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one glike a son of man, hwith a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel icame out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, j“Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for kthe harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, lthe angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, mfor its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great nwinepress of the wrath of God. 20 And othe winepress was trodden poutside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as qa horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia.3

Three things in chapter 14:  1) The first fruits go to the throne; 2) the harvest goes to meet the Lord in the clouds; 3) the gathering into the winepress of the wrath of God.

So, isn't it interesting that the chapter starts with first fruits (multiple, as in 144,000) being taken to the throne, then a little later there's a harvest of believers to the Lord in the clouds?

Interesting, that is how you see it.  I see it in terms of the tares being taken out first.  I realize that would not be consistent with your views.

[Vine Abider]

4 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

Interesting, that is how you see it.  I see it in terms of the tares being taken out first.  I realize that would not be consistent with your views.

In verses 14 & 15  it first says these ones are reaped by one angel to go meet the Lord in the clouds.  Then it says "another angel . . . he too had a sharp sickle" in verse 17, which is regarding the grapes (of wrath).

Two clearly different angels and two different functions.

Chapter begins with first fruits, then the harvest of remaining.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

I've been looking at this verse (1 Cor 15:23) in Greek and various translations.  The word "firstfruit" appears to be singular and is many times rendered that way.  The verse just seems to be saying Christ is the one who is resurrected first, then others will follow at His coming.  I don't think this is precluding multiple rapture events.

Right.  Jesus Christ wa the first human being to receive a glorified resurrected body.  That's what Acts 26:23 says:   that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”   We know that there are many examples of people being "raised from the dead", both in the OT and NT, so this verse is specifically about receiving a glorified body.  So 1 Cor 15:23 confirms that and also informs us of WHEN all believers will receive theirs, which is "when He comes", the Second Advent.

Then you said:  "Also, it's interesting that the phrasing of 1 Thes 4:17 says, "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Why say "remain," if there was not an earlier (first fruit) rapture (at the throne)?"

I don't know why the word "remain" or "left" has anything to do with a previous rapture.  All Paul was saying was that the dead saints come with Jesus from heaven, and all the living believers that are STILL ON EARTH will be "caught up together with them (all the dead saints).  Doesn't seem complicated at all.