Josephus, Church Fathers, and Reformers on Daniel's 70 Weeks - A Source List of Quotations

[anastasis888]

Reading Hebrews 9 again in connection with Daniel 9 would not be wasted time.

Hebrews 9

11But now Messiah being come as high priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained everlasting redemption for us. 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Messiah, who through the everlasting Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the New Covenant, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant they which are called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.

[anastasis888]

If Jesus did not fulfill the 6 tenants of Daniel 9:24, is there some other Messiah to come that will consecrate the very Holy of Holies in Heaven with his own blood and bring in the everlasting Righteousness of God? Is there some other Messiah who will make a New Covenant with the Jew first, but also with the Greek?

If there is, he is a little late on the scene as Daniel's 490 years could not have extended beyond 490 years from the second Temple being completed in 417 BC in the 6th year of Darius II as stated in Ezra 6:15. 

This Messiah will require a time machine to go back and complete his work between 418 BC and AD 73.

[anastasis888]

Is there some other Branch to come that will remove iniquity in one day?

Zechariah 3

8Hear now, O Jeshua high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men marveled at: for, behold, I do bring forth my servant the BRANCH. 9For behold the stone that I have laid before Jeshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of the land in one day.

Edited November 13, 2022 by anastasis888

[Space_Karen]

I'm not certain if I agree 666 in revelation refers to Nero as many claim.

I don't think that the euphrates river dried up during that era fulfilling prophecy. As well as other signs.

Revelation is a topic I avoid as the prime reason for discussing it is usually extremely negative. People don't read revelation as motivation to become more self sufficient or prepare for the coming of the Lord.

They discuss revelation for other reasons which are usually not so noble. Making it a negative rather than a positive.

[anastasis888]

4 hours ago, Space_Karen said:

I'm not certain if I agree 666 in revelation refers to Nero as many claim.

I don't think that the euphrates river dried up during that era fulfilling prophecy. As well as other signs.

Revelation is a topic I avoid as the prime reason for discussing it is usually extremely negative. People don't read revelation as motivation to become more self sufficient or prepare for the coming of the Lord.

They discuss revelation for other reasons which are usually not so noble. Making it a negative rather than a positive.

Ok.

I wasn't really aiming this thread to be about Nero.

I was more gearing it toward Daniel 9.

But, yes, Revelation can be a negative and futile discussion if the motive is not seeking the truth in love.

As a side note, I believe Constantine, not Nero, is the 2nd beast of Revelation 13 - 666. 

ha-Melek ha-Constantinus ha-Augustus

Constantinus Augustus Rex

Ο Βασιλεύς Κωνσταντίνος Αύγουστος

Emperor Constantine Augustus

המלך 95
הקונסטנטינוס 415
האוגוסטוס 156

all words:המלך הקונסטנטינוס האוגוסטוס

total gematria: 666

[Keras]

14 hours ago, anastasis888 said:

If Jesus did not fulfill the 6 tenants of Daniel 9:24, is there some other Messiah to come that will consecrate the very Holy of Holies in Heaven with his own blood and bring in the everlasting Righteousness of God? Is there some other Messiah who will make a New Covenant with the Jew first, but also with the Greek?

If there is, he is a little late on the scene as Daniel's 490 years could not have extended beyond 490 years from the second Temple being completed in 417 BC in the 6th year of Darius II as stated in Ezra 6:15. 

This Messiah will require a time machine to go back and complete his work between 418 BC and AD 73.

That there is a 2000 year gap between the end of the 69th 'week', the Acclamation of Jesus as King, His Crucifixion and Resurrection.  And His glorious Return, is proved by tjat period having almost passed.

THEN the six tenets will be fulfilled. 

The final seven years will come at the end of this age, proved by the many Prophesies in Daniel and Revelation about the second half. As shown in Daniel 9:27

[anastasis888]

1 minute ago, Keras said:

That there is a 2000 year gap between the end of the 69th 'week', the Acclamation of Jesus as King, His Crucifixion and Resurrection.  And His glorious Return, is proved by tjat period having almost passed.

THEN the six tenets will be fulfilled. 

The final seven years will come at the end of this age, proved by the many Prophesies in Daniel and Revelation about the second half. As shown in Daniel 9:27

Are you sure it's not 5000 or 6000 years from now?

What if it's 490,000 years from now?

That would be a rather long final week.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

On 11/12/2022 at 10:55 PM, anastasis888 said:

As a side note, I find it something beyond mind boggling that any Christian could say that none of the 6 tenets of Daniel 9:24 have been fulfilled yet as Jesus fulfilled all 6 and only he fulfilled all 6.

I cannot imagine how anyone could misread Daniel 9:24 any worse than to not recognize that Jesus Christ fulfilled all 6 tenets.

And that's really all I have to say about that.

I mean, seriously? Really? If Jesus didn't make an end of sins and bring in everlasting righteousness, I'm afraid the world is out of luck, because no one else is going to.

Not sure if this is directed at me, but Dan 9.24 specifically is referring to Israel more specifically Judean's.   Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city to:

Finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 

God ordered the destruction of the first temple because of Israel's paganism and idolatry worship and ordered them to go into captivity for 70 years.  The 490 years was God giving Israel a second chance to get their act together and bring an end to their past transgressions, to welcome in everlasting righteousness and to anoint the most holy King and Messiah.  This did not happen for Israel, but quite the opposite.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me. And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate. For I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say, 'Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the LORD!'" - Mat 23:37-39

One could argue that this did not come true for Israel but came true for others (Gentiles), but I would strongly argue none of these will be completely fulfilled until the 2nd Coming of Messiah when he will rule and reign as King of Kings here on earth out of Zion (Jerusalem).

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. - Mat 13:41 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Jedi4Yahweh

[anastasis888]

29 minutes ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Not sure if this is directed at me, but Dan 9.24 specifically is referring to Israel more specifically Judean's.   Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city to:

Finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 

God ordered the destruction of the first temple because of Israel's paganism and idolatry worship and ordered them to go into captivity for 70 years.  The 490 years was God giving Israel a second chance to get their act together and bring an end to their past transgressions, to welcome in everlasting righteousness and to anoint the most holy King and Messiah.  This did not happen for Israel, but quite the opposite.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me. And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate. For I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say, 'Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the LORD!'" - Mat 23:37-39

One could argue that this did not come true for Israel but came true for others (Gentiles), but I would strong argue none of these will be completely fulfilled until the 2nd Coming of Messiah when he will rule and reign and King of Kings hear on earth out of Zion (Jerusalem).

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. - Mat 13:41 

That's probably a good summary of why many today cannot have all 70 weeks of Daniel fulfilled. They believe Christ is coming to reign on earth for 1000 years.

They are Premillennialists. I do not hold that Premillennialism is a Biblical doctrine. I believe it is completely foreign to the New Testament and that Christ is already reigning in his spiritual kingdom.

I do not believe that Jesus Christ will ever step foot on this earth again. We will meet him in the air at his coming. The only kingdom is the kingdom of Heaven. There is no kingdom in earthly Jerusalem. There is only New Jerusalem in Heaven.

I hold Premillennialism to be the single most malicious false eschatology in existence that stands against nearly every concept of the true Gospel. It has taken the kingdom of Heaven, flipped it upside down, and turned it back into the kingdom of this earth.

But now I do understand why Premillennialism cannot afford to say that Daniel's weeks are completed. It would disrupt their eschatological bent.

However, even Josephus a Jew who did not even believe in Jesus as Messiah states openly that he is not in doubt as to Daniel's weeks having been completed.

[anastasis888]

I suppose it is not quite correct to say that I am an anti-Zionist. I am an anti-earthly-Zionist. I am a pro-heavenly-Zionist. But I warn all to reconsider their eschatology and to beware of the Dispensationalism that is so widely commericialized as the the Gospel eschatology today. It is wholly antagonistic to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and seeks to bring Christ down to earth when Christ is bringing his people up to heavenly places.

And once more, I commend the disciple to the Epistle to the Hebrews. They will seek to keep you earthbound and looking to earthly Zion. But the Scripture states that we have here no continuing city. Therefore, we look to New Jerusalem in the heavens, not to the earth. We are the kingdom of Heaven, not the kingdom of earth. The earth dwellers will remain earth dwellers, but Christ has raised us up to sit with him in heavenly places even now.

Once we study ourselves out of the pretense of Dispensationalism, we are not left in doubt as to whether or not Daniel's weeks are fulfilled. We clearly see them to have been fulfilled in time now long past.

If you are an earthly Zionist and a Dispensationalist, beware lest while thinking yourself to be building the kingdom of Christ in earthly Jerusalem you are in fact building the kingdom of antichrist in earthly Jerusalem.

Hebrews 12

18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the New Covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Hebrew 13

 10We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. 11For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. 12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Edited November 14, 2022 by anastasis888