Reconciling 6 Days with 13.7 Billion Years

[BeyondET]

8 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Got news for you.  Yes, that is a fact.  I suggest you consult a dictionary and learn what a fact is.  It is a truth.  And I have shown the the MOST common use of the exact same verb form for "hayah" in Gen 1:2 is.  Why is that so difficult to accept?

And you didn't answer my question.

You really don't understand what "fact" means.  Since the translation of "hayah" in Gen 1:2 is translated as "was" in ONLY 4% of all verses with that exact same form, that ALSO is a FACT.

Since you don't recognize what a fact is, why do you engage in discussions?

So, here's a FACT for you:  the ext form of the verb in Gen 1:2 is RARELY translated as "was", whereas is MOST COMMONLY translated as "became" in the rest of the OT.

Fact.  A fact that you seem unwilling to admit.  Why can't you simply accept FACTS?  They are what they are.

Now, if the MOST COMMON translation of the exact same verb form in Gen 1:2 was actually "was", that would be a fact, and I wouldn't have a point, would I?

No, I wouldn't have a point.  But I DO have a point, because the FACT is, THE MOST COMMON translation of that exact verb form was translated as "became" in the rest of the OT.  FACT.

You need to get your FACTS straight.

The most common use of the word. Doesn't equal a fact that verse 2 was supposed to be the common version.

The fact is you desperately want it to be translated as became to fit your narrative. None of the top ten English Bible translations has it as became. Those bible scholars are far more knowledgeable than you. If what your saying was true, Bibles would of presented verse 2 as such, it's not became but was.

Good news for you is that every person on earth could be wrong about what happened or not what happened during creation.

Edited June 30, 2023 by BeyondET

[DeighAnn]

IS NULL AND VOID

a 'process of creation'

or 

A RESULT OF DESTRUCTION? 

 
I fall on the side of 'a result of destruction' BECAUSE I can and do find 

'A DESTRUCTION' WRITTEN in the words of GOD that fit everything perfectly especially with the 'fall' of the one made the full pattern....  


Do those who put forth IT IS A PROCESS OF CREATION do so BY WHAT IS WRITTEN or do they SOLELY do so by 'the wisdom of man'?   



Negating Noahs flood as having anything to do with the DESTRUCTION that cause ruin....

WHAT IS WRITTEN???
13In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

15And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

16And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.


EVERY MAN DID NOT PERISH. 
EVERY ANIMAL DID NOT PERISH,
EVERY BIRD DID NOT PERISH. 

BIBLE student or not, the earth did not mourn, the SKIES did not become black and the world did NOT perish.  
 


the EARTH is not found 'with GOD in the PROCESS of it's creation', it is ALREADY THERE in the darkness when the LIGHT first shines. 

 

What those who CLAIM it is a part of 'GODS PROCESS' need to do to is show WHERE THAT IS WRITTEN because if they don't,

BY DEFAULT 'DESTRUCTION WINS' 


HERE IS A DESTRUCTION that SHOWS how the earth gets to be a ruin in darkness...

19My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

20Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.
21How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

22For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.


SO what is written about as to the EFFECTS OF THAT SUDDEN DESTRUCTION that came UPON 'INHABITED EARTH'???

23I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

It is concealed from indeed them this willingly, that heavens existed long ago, and earth out of water and through water having been composed by the of God WORD

through which the at that time world with water having been deluged

PERISHED

622. apollumi ►
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

[This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.]


but now the heavens and the earth by the same word having been stored up

exist for fire being kept unto day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men


HOW DO WE KNOW THAT DESTRUCTION IS NOT FUTURE BUT PAST?????

for fire being kept unto day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men



That is written.  No conjecture, no assumption, no conclusion, no 'wisdom of man', no 'man explains'....


IS the earth NULL AND VOID a PROCESS OF CREATION 'WRITTEN' ANYWHERE IN THE WORDS OF GOD


OR IS IT A PROCESS 'AS CONCLUDED AND CLAIMED by those of SCIENCE with

ONLY THE WISDOM OF MAN and nothing written by God. 

  


See ya in a couple of days

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

The most common use of the word. Doesn't equal a fact that verse 2 was supposed to be the common version.

What are you even talking about?  The FACT continues to REMAIN that the exact same form of the verb hayah in v.2 is translated as "became" way more than any other translation throughout the rest of the OT.  This is a very simple point.  

Another very simple point is that translating THAT exact same form of that verb as "was" is very UNCOMMON.

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

The fact is you desperately want it to be translated as became to fit your narrative.

Then go ahead and prove that the word that is translated MOST OF THE TIME as "became" shouldn't be translated that way in v.2.  Please.

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

None of the top ten English Bible translations has it as became.

Are you really missing the point here.  Considering ALL of the OT, translators translated that exact same form of the verb as "became" but that seems to have no relevance to you.  I do not understand why it doesn't.

I'll go you one further.  NONE of the English translations have "became" in v.2.  But so what?  The SAME translators who rendered THAT EXACT FORM of the verb in v.2 as "was" (which is the LEAST COMMON USE of that form) also translated that EXACT SAME FORM of the verb as "became" in the rest of the OT.  So you have no point.

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Those bible scholars are far more knowledgeable than you. 

And I'm counting on that FACT.  That is why I did the research to see how those same scholars rendered THAT EXACT FORM of the verb elsewhere in the OT, and the MOST COMMON translation of THAT EXACT SAME FORM of the verb was "became".

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

If what your saying was true, Bibles would of presented verse 2 as such, it's not became but was.

Except, when English translations first showed up, no one had a sophisticated software program to check out how other translators rendered any words.  From what I've read, when a translation is being developed, teams of scholars are assigned certain portions of Scripture.  So those working on Genesis 1 didn't check with other teams to see how they translated THAT EXACT SAME FORM of the verb.  

I think the problem is that they punted because are no details that explain HOW the earth became a wasteland, and they didn't want to translate something without evidence.  

But, since most everyone agrees that Genesis 1 is a SUMMARY anyway, no details are necessary.  

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Good news for you is that every person on earth could be wrong about what happened or not what happened during creation.

No one knows what happened AFTER Gen 1:1, which is original creation.  So everyone who gives their opinion IS wrong, simply because they don't know.  It's all just theory as to what caused the earth to become a wasteland.

But you haven't addressed the real point here.  Since you argue against a time gap, which indicates a very old earth, relative to Adam, what is so important for you to defend a very young earth (6,000 yrs)?  Why is that so important to you?

I think most YECs just will not admit that they cannot separate a very old earth from evolution.  Well, I sure can.  My view has NO evolution in it.

If you think it does, please explain where it fits in.  And just having an old earth doesn't do that.  While evolution demands a very old earth, a very old earth has no usew for evolution.  Can you undersand that?

[BeyondET]

21 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

What are you even talking about?  The FACT continues to REMAIN that the exact same form of the verb hayah in v.2 is translated as "became" way more than any other translation throughout the rest of the OT.  This is a very simple point.  

Another very simple point is that translating THAT exact same form of that verb as "was" is very UNCOMMON.

Then go ahead and prove that the word that is translated MOST OF THE TIME as "became" shouldn't be translated that way in v.2.  Please.

Are you really missing the point here.  Considering ALL of the OT, translators translated that exact same form of the verb as "became" but that seems to have no relevance to you.  I do not understand why it doesn't.

I'll go you one further.  NONE of the English translations have "became" in v.2.  But so what?  The SAME translators who rendered THAT EXACT FORM of the verb in v.2 as "was" (which is the LEAST COMMON USE of that form) also translated that EXACT SAME FORM of the verb as "became" in the rest of the OT.  So you have no point.

And I'm counting on that FACT.  That is why I did the research to see how those same scholars rendered THAT EXACT FORM of the verb elsewhere in the OT, and the MOST COMMON translation of THAT EXACT SAME FORM of the verb was "became".

Except, when English translations first showed up, no one had a sophisticated software program to check out how other translators rendered any words.  From what I've read, when a translation is being developed, teams of scholars are assigned certain portions of Scripture.  So those working on Genesis 1 didn't check with other teams to see how they translated THAT EXACT SAME FORM of the verb.  

I think the problem is that they punted because are no details that explain HOW the earth became a wasteland, and they didn't want to translate something without evidence.  

But, since most everyone agrees that Genesis 1 is a SUMMARY anyway, no details are necessary.  

No one knows what happened AFTER Gen 1:1, which is original creation.  So everyone who gives their opinion IS wrong, simply because they don't know.  It's all just theory as to what caused the earth to become a wasteland.

But you haven't addressed the real point here.  Since you argue against a time gap, which indicates a very old earth, relative to Adam, what is so important for you to defend a very young earth (6,000 yrs)?  Why is that so important to you?

I think most YECs just will not admit that they cannot separate a very old earth from evolution.  Well, I sure can.  My view has NO evolution in it.

If you think it does, please explain where it fits in.  And just having an old earth doesn't do that.  While evolution demands a very old earth, a very old earth has no usew for evolution.  Can you undersand that?

But so what you ask?

Why didn't those same translators use the most common because they knew became doesn't belong in verse 2 that's why.

 

Bible > Genesis > Chapter 1 > Verse 2

◄ Genesis 1:2 ►

New International Version

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

New Living Translation

The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

English Standard Version

The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Berean Standard Bible

Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

King James Bible

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

New King James Version

The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

New American Standard Bible

And the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

NASB 1995

The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

NASB 1977

And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Legacy Standard Bible

And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Amplified Bible

The earth was formless and void or a waste and emptiness, and darkness was upon the face of the deep [primeval ocean that covered the unformed earth]. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.

Christian Standard Bible

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the watery depths, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the watery depths, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

American Standard Version

And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

The Earth was chaos and empty and darkness on the faces of the depths and the Spirit of God hovered on the faces of the waters.

Brenton Septuagint Translation

But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.

Contemporary English Version

The earth was barren, with no form of life; it was under a roaring ocean covered with darkness. But the Spirit of God was moving over the water.

Douay-Rheims Bible

And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.

English Revised Version

And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

GOD'S WORD® Translation

The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep water. The Spirit of God was hovering over the water.

Good News Translation

the earth was formless and desolate. The raging ocean that covered everything was engulfed in total darkness, and the Spirit of God was moving over the water.

International Standard Version

When the earth was as yet unformed and desolate, with the surface of the ocean depths shrouded in darkness, and while the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters,

JPS Tanakh 1917

Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.

Literal Standard Version

and the earth was formless and void, and darkness [was] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God [was] fluttering on the face of the waters,

Majority Standard Bible

Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

New American Bible

and the earth was without form or shape, with darkness over the abyss and a mighty wind sweeping over the waters—

NET Bible

Now the earth was without shape and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the watery deep, but the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water.

New Revised Standard Version

the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

New Heart English Bible

Now the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was on the surface of the watery depths. And God's Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Webster's Bible Translation

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

World English Bible

The earth was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep and God’s Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Young's Literal Translation

the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

Edited June 30, 2023 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

16 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

Why didn't those same translators use the most common because they knew became doesn't belong in verse 2 that's why.

And how would they know that?  All you are doing is wishing.  They had no context because God didn't give any detail about HOW the earth became tohu (a wasteland).

Can you explain why the traditional translation of v.2 CONTRADICTS Isa 45:18

v.1-2  "God created the earth and the earth was tohu".

Isa 45:18 "God didn't create the earth tohu".

My view has no contradiction with any other verse.

Big deal.  I already told you that every English translation of v.2 uses "was".  Yet, "became" is THE MOST COMMON translation throughout the Bible.  And "was" is the LEAST COMMON translation.

Why did you ignore my question about how a very old earth changes ANYTHING in the Bible?  

Is your only answer about any view of an old earth means evolution?  But you just don't want to admit that?

I've already said that I reject any and every form of evolution in God's creation of the earth.  He created it perfect.  But (Septuagint) the earth became a wasteland (God left out any details) so God restored the earth for man's use.

Now tell me how that encourages or supports evolution.

[BeyondET]

15 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

And how would they know that?  All you are doing is wishing.  They had no context because God didn't give any detail about HOW the earth became tohu (a wasteland).

Can you explain why the traditional translation of v.2 CONTRADICTS Isa 45:18

v.1-2  "God created the earth and the earth was tohu".

Isa 45:18 "God didn't create the earth tohu".

My view has no contradiction with any other verse.

Big deal.  I already told you that every English translation of v.2 uses "was".  Yet, "became" is THE MOST COMMON translation throughout the Bible.  And "was" is the LEAST COMMON translation.

Why did you ignore my question about how a very old earth changes ANYTHING in the Bible?  

Is your only answer about any view of an old earth means evolution?  But you just don't want to admit that?

I've already said that I reject any and every form of evolution in God's creation of the earth.  He created it perfect.  But (Septuagint) the earth became a wasteland (God left out any details) so God restored the earth for man's use.

Now tell me how that encourages or supports evolution.

Isaiah is saying the completed earth was not created to be uninhabitable like other planets are.

All those Bible translations used the least common use of the word because it wasn't the most common word use, it's as simple as that. Can you read Greek or Hebrew language or speak it?

You are jumping off script, we are discussing verse 2 not evolution. You are using diversion tactics and its not working with me.

Nothing evolved by chance or blind chemistry. A old earth is because God takes His time. He's not in a hurry.

Edited June 30, 2023 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Isaiah is saying the completed earth was not created to be uninhabitable like other planets are.

Let's actually see what Isaiah did say:

New American Standard Bible
For this is what the LORD says, He who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it as a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited): “I am the LORD, and there is no one else.

NASB 1995
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), “I am the LORD, and there is none else.

NASB 1977 
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, Butformed it to be inhabited), “I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Amplified Bible
For the LORD, who created the heavens (He is God, who formed the earth and made it; He established it and did not create it to be a wasteland, but formed it to be inhabited) says this, “I am the LORD, and there is no one else.

Christian Standard Bible
For this is what the LORD says — the Creator of the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, the one who established it (he did not create it to be a wasteland, but formed it to be inhabited) — he says, “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

American Standard Version
For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else.

English Revised Version
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; he is God; that formed the earth and made it; he established it, he created it not a waste, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Good News Translation
The LORD created the heavens--he is the one who is God! He formed and made the earth--he made it firm and lasting. He did not make it a desolate waste, but a place for people to live. It is he who says, "I am the LORD, and there is no other god. 

International Standard Version
For this is what the LORD says, who created the heavens— he is God, and the one who formed the earth and made it, and he is the one who established it; he didn't create it for chaos, but formed it to be inhabited— "I am the LORD and there is no other.

JPS Tanakh 1917
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens, He is God; That formed the earth and made it, He established it, He created it not a waste, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD, and there is none else.
New American Bible
For thus says the LORD, The creator of the heavens, who is God, The designer and maker of the earth who established it, Not as an empty waste did he create it, but designing it to be lived in: I am the LORD, and there is no other. 

NET Bible
For this is what the LORD says, the one who created the sky--he is the true God, the one who formed the earth and made it; he established it, he did not create it without order, he formed it to be inhabited--"I am the LORD, I have no peer. 

New Revised Standard Version
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it a chaos, he formed it to be inhabited!): I am the LORD, and there is no other.

New Heart English Bible
For thus says the LORD who created the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, who established it and did not create it a waste, who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

World English Bible
For Yahweh who created the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, who established it and didn’t create it a waste, who formed it to be inhabited says: “I am Yahweh. There is no other. 

In each translation, I bolded the phrase with "tohu" in it, and you an easily SEE that the word means "wasteland", "waste place", "waste", "chaos".  These translators knew what "tohu" means.

What it can NEVER mean is "formless" or "without form", since NO object has no form.  You are arguing an impossible condition.

Every object HAS form.

12 hours ago, BeyondET said:

All those Bible translations used the least common use of the word because it wasn't the most common word use, it's as simple as that. Can you read Greek or Hebrew language or speak it?

The good news is that I don't have to.  Neither do you.  But I've shown how many translations of Isa 45:18 translated "tohu" and it ain't "formless".  And that's how it should have been translated that way in Gen 1:2.  Speaking of which:
American Standard Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The Earth was chaos and empty and darkness on the faces of the depths and the Spirit of God hovered on the faces of the waters.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.
English Revised Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Young's Literal Translation
the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

Again, the bolded phrase contains the word "tohu" and the Brenton Septuagint translation shows that those Hebrew scholars used the conjunction of CONTRAST (but) at the beginning of the verse.

12 hours ago, BeyondET said:

You are jumping off script, we are discussing verse 2 not evolution. You are using diversion tactics and its not working with me.

My point is that my understanding that the earth is very old doesn't include any idea of evolution.  Most YEC can't divorce an old earth from evolution.  That is their hangup.

So, what's your hangup with a very old earth, if not evolution.  You keep dodging this question.  Like you're afraid to admit something.

12 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Nothing evolved by chance or blind chemistry. A old earth is because God takes His time. He's not in a hurry.

Then explain the 6 literal days of Genesis 1.  In my view, the 6 literal days is about restoration.  What's your story?

Given how you accept the traditional translation of Gen 1:2, and your acceptance of an old earth, there is a conundrum that can't be explained.  And isn't rational or reasonable.

And I've shared quite a number of translations that support what I am claiming about the Hebrew meanings.

Edited July 1, 2023 by FreeGrace

[DeighAnn]

7225 [e]    בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית
bə-rê-šîṯ    In the beginning    Prep-b | N-fs
1254 [e]    בָּרָ֣א
bā-rā    created    V-Qal-Perf-3ms
430 [e]    אֱלֹהִ֑ים
’ĕ-lō-hîm;    God    N-mp
853 [e]    אֵ֥ת
’êṯ    -    DirObjM
8064 [e]    הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם
haš-šā-ma-yim    the heavens    Art | N-mp
853 [e]    וְאֵ֥ת
wə-’êṯ    and    Conj-w | DirObjM
776 [e]    הָאָֽרֶץ׃
hā-’ā-reṣ.    the earth    Art | N-fs




In Hebrew, for translation two things are important: aspect and context. Therefore,

 WAS  in VERSE 1, 

was FINISHED - not in the process of 'being created' 


Qal perfect קָטַל would be translated as “he killed” (since the action is perfective - finished)





IF IT was IN THE PROCESS OF BEING CREATED THE VERB WOULD HAVE BEEN

and Qal imperfect יִקְטֹל as “he will kill” (the action is imperfective - yet to be finished).

 1254. bara' 
Strong's Concordance
bara': choose
Original Word: בָּרָא
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: bara'
Phonetic Spelling: (baw-raw')
Definition: to shape, create



Qal Perfect Genesis 1:1 19t.; Imperfect יִבְרָא Genesis 1:21,27; Numbers 16:30; Infinitive בְּראֹ Genesis 5:1; Imperative בְּרָא Psalm 51:12; Participle בּוֺרֵא Isaiah 42:5 10t.; suffix בֹּרַאֲךָ Isaiah 43:1; בּוֺרְאֶיךָ Ecclesiastes 12:1; — shape, fashion, create, always of divine activity, with accusative of thing, seldom except in P and Isa2.


choose, create creator, cut down, dispatch, do, make fat
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes) -- choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).




Genesis VERSE 1 HAS NO process, has no chaos, just a FINISHED and established earth.









 

 

[BeyondET]

6 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Let's actually see what Isaiah did say:

New American Standard Bible
For this is what the LORD says, He who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it as a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited): “I am the LORD, and there is no one else.

NASB 1995
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), “I am the LORD, and there is none else.

NASB 1977 
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, Butformed it to be inhabited), “I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Amplified Bible
For the LORD, who created the heavens (He is God, who formed the earth and made it; He established it and did not create it to be a wasteland, but formed it to be inhabited) says this, “I am the LORD, and there is no one else.

Christian Standard Bible
For this is what the LORD says — the Creator of the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, the one who established it (he did not create it to be a wasteland, but formed it to be inhabited) — he says, “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

American Standard Version
For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else.

English Revised Version
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; he is God; that formed the earth and made it; he established it, he created it not a waste, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Good News Translation
The LORD created the heavens--he is the one who is God! He formed and made the earth--he made it firm and lasting. He did not make it a desolate waste, but a place for people to live. It is he who says, "I am the LORD, and there is no other god. 

International Standard Version
For this is what the LORD says, who created the heavens— he is God, and the one who formed the earth and made it, and he is the one who established it; he didn't create it for chaos, but formed it to be inhabited— "I am the LORD and there is no other.

JPS Tanakh 1917
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens, He is God; That formed the earth and made it, He established it, He created it not a waste, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD, and there is none else.
New American Bible
For thus says the LORD, The creator of the heavens, who is God, The designer and maker of the earth who established it, Not as an empty waste did he create it, but designing it to be lived in: I am the LORD, and there is no other. 

NET Bible
For this is what the LORD says, the one who created the sky--he is the true God, the one who formed the earth and made it; he established it, he did not create it without order, he formed it to be inhabited--"I am the LORD, I have no peer. 

New Revised Standard Version
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it a chaos, he formed it to be inhabited!): I am the LORD, and there is no other.

New Heart English Bible
For thus says the LORD who created the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, who established it and did not create it a waste, who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

World English Bible
For Yahweh who created the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, who established it and didn’t create it a waste, who formed it to be inhabited says: “I am Yahweh. There is no other. 

In each translation, I bolded the phrase with "tohu" in it, and you an easily SEE that the word means "wasteland", "waste place", "waste", "chaos".  These translators knew what "tohu" means.

What it can NEVER mean is "formless" or "without form", since NO object has no form.  You are arguing an impossible condition.

Every object HAS form.

The good news is that I don't have to.  Neither do you.  But I've shown how many translations of Isa 45:18 translated "tohu" and it ain't "formless".  And that's how it should have been translated that way in Gen 1:2.  Speaking of which:
American Standard Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The Earth was chaos and empty and darkness on the faces of the depths and the Spirit of God hovered on the faces of the waters.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.
English Revised Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Young's Literal Translation
the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

Again, the bolded phrase contains the word "tohu" and the Brenton Septuagint translation shows that those Hebrew scholars used the conjunction of CONTRAST (but) at the beginning of the verse.

My point is that my understanding that the earth is very old doesn't include any idea of evolution.  Most YEC can't divorce an old earth from evolution.  That is their hangup.

So, what's your hangup with a very old earth, if not evolution.  You keep dodging this question.  Like you're afraid to admit something.

Then explain the 6 literal days of Genesis 1.  In my view, the 6 literal days is about restoration.  What's your story?

Given how you accept the traditional translation of Gen 1:2, and your acceptance of an old earth, there is a conundrum that can't be explained.  And isn't rational or reasonable.

And I've shared quite a number of translations that support what I am claiming about the Hebrew meanings.

Form to be inhabitable not formed to inhabitable then a wasteland back to a habitable planet again.

I've told you I have no problem with earth is 4.5 billion years old.

[BeyondET]

7 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

7225 [e]    בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית
bə-rê-šîṯ    In the beginning    Prep-b | N-fs
1254 [e]    בָּרָ֣א
bā-rā    created    V-Qal-Perf-3ms
430 [e]    אֱלֹהִ֑ים
’ĕ-lō-hîm;    God    N-mp
853 [e]    אֵ֥ת
’êṯ    -    DirObjM
8064 [e]    הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם
haš-šā-ma-yim    the heavens    Art | N-mp
853 [e]    וְאֵ֥ת
wə-’êṯ    and    Conj-w | DirObjM
776 [e]    הָאָֽרֶץ׃
hā-’ā-reṣ.    the earth    Art | N-fs




In Hebrew, for translation two things are important: aspect and context. Therefore,

 WAS  in VERSE 1, 

was FINISHED - not in the process of 'being created' 


Qal perfect קָטַל would be translated as “he killed” (since the action is perfective - finished)





IF IT was IN THE PROCESS OF BEING CREATED THE VERB WOULD HAVE BEEN

and Qal imperfect יִקְטֹל as “he will kill” (the action is imperfective - yet to be finished).

 1254. bara' 
Strong's Concordance
bara': choose
Original Word: בָּרָא
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: bara'
Phonetic Spelling: (baw-raw')
Definition: to shape, create



Qal Perfect Genesis 1:1 19t.; Imperfect יִבְרָא Genesis 1:21,27; Numbers 16:30; Infinitive בְּראֹ Genesis 5:1; Imperative בְּרָא Psalm 51:12; Participle בּוֺרֵא Isaiah 42:5 10t.; suffix בֹּרַאֲךָ Isaiah 43:1; בּוֺרְאֶיךָ Ecclesiastes 12:1; — shape, fashion, create, always of divine activity, with accusative of thing, seldom except in P and Isa2.


choose, create creator, cut down, dispatch, do, make fat
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes) -- choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).




Genesis VERSE 1 HAS NO process, has no chaos, just a FINISHED and established earth.









 

 

What was the habitation of that completed earth in the beginning.

No life had been formed yet.