The Efficacy of Water Baptism

[Michael37]

2 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

But this was not with remission of sin.

John 15:3 You are already clean

because of the word which I have spoken to you.

One last time, @Cntrysner made the statement

that the baptism of John was of the Law. It was not.

It was prophetic to the coming of Messiah. 

 

Just a sidenote while we are together @Mr. M, to do with John baptising in the river Jordan. Anything in that? 

[The_Patriot21]

You all are arguing over something silly, and your both right, and wrong.

Ita true that baptism is not part of levitical law.

But it was practiced culturally at the time. What John the Baptist was doing wasn't really "new"

[Mr. M]

Just now, Michael37 said:

Just a sidenote while we are together @Mr. M, to do with John baptising in the river Jordan. Anything in that? 

The only concern expressed in the Gospels concerning the baptism of John was the authority and purpose by which it was performed. 

 

[Mr. M]

4 minutes ago, The_Patriot21 said:

But it was practiced culturally at the time. What John the Baptist was doing wasn't really "new"

The Lord would disagree with you.

And it was the Pharisees who were made to look silly.

Matthew 21:

23 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?”

24 But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: 

25 The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?”

And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ 

26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet.” 

27 So they answered Jesus and said, “We do not know.”

And He said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.

The scribes and Pharisees contradict your notion that John's baptism was cultural and common to the time, or related to the Law of Moses. In fact, their belief was that if John was baptizing, he must either be Elijah, that prophet or Christ Himself. 

His baptism was ordained by the words of the prophets, not Moses.

John 1:

19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”

20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”

21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”

He said, “I am not.”

“Are you the Prophet?”

And he answered, “No.”

22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?”

23 He said: “I am

‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“Make straight the way of the Lord,” ’

as the prophet Isaiah said.”

24 Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, saying, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”

26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. 

27 It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.”

28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

[Michael37]

6 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

The only concern expressed in the Gospels concerning the baptism of John was the authority and purpose by which it was performed. 

 

Obviously some in the Sanhedrin weren't happy about it.

[The_Patriot21]

50 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

The Lord would disagree with you.

And it was the Pharisees who were made to look silly.

Matthew 21:

23 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?”

24 But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: 

25 The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?”

And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ 

26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet.” 

27 So they answered Jesus and said, “We do not know.”

And He said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.

The scribes and Pharisees contradict your notion that John's baptism was cultural and common to the time, or related to the Law of Moses. In fact, their belief was that if John was baptizing, he must either be Elijah, that prophet or Christ Himself. 

His baptism was ordained by the words of the prophets, not Moses.

John 1:

19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”

20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”

21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”

He said, “I am not.”

“Are you the Prophet?”

And he answered, “No.”

22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?”

23 He said: “I am

‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“Make straight the way of the Lord,” ’

as the prophet Isaiah said.”

24 Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, saying, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”

26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. 

27 It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.”

28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

Well, seeing as it was a practice that did indeed take place then, I'd say the Lord wouldn't disagree with me, as it's historical fact.

I think you misunderstood my intention. I never said what the pharisees did with their baptism was levitical law, nor even right (it wasnt) just that they did it and passed it off as levitical law (it wasn't) the pharisees did a lot of things that weren't the law but claimed it was.

Johns baptism wasn't for the same reasons as the pharisee baptism obviously, but it also wasn't "new"

 

[Mr. M]

5 minutes ago, The_Patriot21 said:

Well, seeing as it was a practice that did indeed take place then, I'd say the Lord wouldn't disagree with me, as it's historical fact.

I think you misunderstood my intention. I never said what the pharisees did with their baptism was levitical law, nor even right (it wasnt) just that they did it and passed it off as levitical law (it wasn't) the pharisees did a lot of things that weren't the law but claimed it was.

Johns baptism wasn't for the same reasons as the pharisee baptism obviously, but it also wasn't "new"

 

Don't forget that there were many false Messiahs at that time that may have used baptism for initiates. This makes John's baptism all the more significant, and was emphasized often by the Lord.

Acts 5:

34 Then one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded them to put the apostles outside for a little while. 

35 And he said to them: “Men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what you intend to do regarding these men. 

36 For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody. A number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was slain, and all who obeyed him were scattered and came to nothing. 

37 After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away many people after him. He also perished, and all who obeyed him were dispersed. 

38 And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; 

39 but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God.”

Note: Gamaliel was Paul's teacher. Acts 22:3

 

[Michael37]

On 12/23/2022 at 1:12 AM, Mr. M said:

Water baptism with a right comprehension is essential to a believer's walk,

going forward in the "newness of life."

What is to be done about those whose comprehension is not right?

Hold an inquisition?

Stone them?

I'm very wary of the "corrective directive " technique of ministry whereby an assertive person uses the power of suggestion to direct someone to believe they are failing or lacking in some respect and that the asserter's dogma is the correct one to remedy the solution.

There are ways of communicating that avoid the discord this stirs up.

I could keep closing threads like this started by the same author, but a new one with the same issue will pop up.

Another OM wants this thread to stay open, so it is going to.

[Neighbor]

"The Efficacy of Water Baptism"

Starting  with a definition of efficacy, if the one below is acceptable, then  I end up wondering what was the need or desired effect that Yeshua required from John The Baptist for  himself?

efficacy /ĕf′ĭ-kə-sē/

noun

1. Power or capacity to produce a desired effect; effectiveness. 
2. Power to produce effects; operation or energy of an agent or force; production of the effect intended. 
   "the efficacy of medicine in counteracting disease; the efficacy of prayer."
   Similar: efficacy
3. Ability to produce a desired amount of a desired effect. 

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition 

 

Jesus came to be baptized by John did he not? Matthew 3:13-14. It is recorded that he said it is fitting for him to be so baptized.  

So if it was fitting, and efficacy is  for a desired effective change, what change did Jesus desire or need for himself that he insisted on John's water baptism for repentance for himself?

 

p.s. BTW the thread is a good one, one for all of little or much understanding. May many gain useful insight for themselves that leads to further reading the word of God. Reading with prayer, thinking, and yes much questioning. For questions lead to more prayer and reading  perhaps with gaining  insight through the Holy Spirit's guidance.

[The_Patriot21]

13 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Don't forget that there were many false Messiahs at that time that may have used baptism for initiates. This makes John's baptism all the more significant, and was emphasized often by the Lord.

Acts 5:

34 Then one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded them to put the apostles outside for a little while. 

35 And he said to them: “Men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what you intend to do regarding these men. 

36 For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody. A number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was slain, and all who obeyed him were scattered and came to nothing. 

37 After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away many people after him. He also perished, and all who obeyed him were dispersed. 

38 And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; 

39 but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God.”

Note: Gamaliel was Paul's teacher. Acts 22:3

 

Again I think your misunderstanding my point. But I won't argue further.