New Jerusalem - size and shape

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Uriah.

I DON'T deviate from the Scriptures! The Scripture actually says,

Apokalupsis 21:16 (Scrivener's TR 1894)

16 καὶ ἡ πόλις τετράγωνος κεῖται, καὶ τὸ μῆκος αὐτῆς τοσοῦτόν ἐστιν ὅσον καὶ τὸ πλάτος. καὶ ἐμέτρησε τὴν πόλιν τῷ καλάμῳ ἐπὶ σταδίων δώδεκα χιλιάδων· τὸ μῆκος καὶ τὸ πλάτος καὶ τὸ ὕψος αὐτῆς ἴσα ἐστί.

This transliterates to ...

16 Kai hee polis tetragoonos keitai, kai to meekos autees tosouton estin hoson kai to platos. Kai emetreese teen polin too kalamoo epi stadioon doodeka chiliadoon; to meekos kai to platos kai to hupsos autees isa esti.

This translates word-for-word to ...

16 And the city four-angled lies, and the length of-it so-large is the-same-as also the breadth. And he-measured the city with-the reed upon stadia twelve thousands; the length and the breadth and the height of-it equal are.

"Foursquare" (or "tetragoonos" in Greek) is a 2-dimensional shape! Furthermore, we are told that this is how the city LIES! At best, it's a SQUARE, IF we assume (and I believe we rightly do) that all four angles are the same.

However, if we take this "square" to the extremes painted for us in a length and width of 12,000 stadia EACH, then the curvature of the earth comes into the equation!

And, technically, the Scripture doesn't say ANYTHING about "the top of the city!" That's ALSO something to consider!

Maybe the New Earth isn't as round.  Maybe in the refreshing and removing of the sea there is a change in shape to.  Maybe that is what the size of the city is telling us.  Who knows maybe the earth will finally be flat.  Wouldn't that make some people happy.  
I personally don't hardly understand anything you are saying here but reading it brings back good memories of my hubby talking to me.  God bless his heart, how he would try to explain things like this to me.  Every now and again a brain cell would light up....I would understand for a few seconds ...but then it would explode. 
 

 

[Retrobyter]

22 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Maybe the New Earth isn't as round.  Maybe in the refreshing and removing of the sea there is a change in shape too. 

Shabbat shalom, DeighAnn.

You could be right, but remember: we only know a planet where round like a ball feels flat to us. Any irregularities on the size or shape of the earth is going to make our planet far different than we are used to. "Down" to us is toward the center of the earth. Any irregularities that make it go farther out from the center will make it seem like a elevating of the terrain; any irregularities that make it go closer to the center will feel like going downhill. Slight outward bumps are MOUNTAINS; slight flattenings are CRATERS!

22 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Maybe that is what the size of the city is telling us.  Who knows maybe the earth will finally be flat.  Wouldn't that make some people happy. 

LOL!

22 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 I personally don't hardly understand anything you are saying here but reading it brings back good memories of my hubby talking to me.  God bless his heart, how he would try to explain things like this to me.  Every now and again a brain cell would light up....I would understand for a few seconds ...but then it would explode. 

Well, all I can say is "Great minds think alike!" Yeah, I caused a few of my youngest sister's brain cells to explode. She's happy living with her husband and children and grandchildren out in Washington state. I'm not sure how we got in opposite corners of the continental U.S., but it makes it interesting trying to get together for holidays! My older sister, who is still younger than I, would understand what I was saying and just shake her head.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, everyone.

The first day of the week has begun; so, I know that many of you are preparing for church services tomorrow.

However, this topic is FAR from over! There are SO MANY DETAILS that are found in Revelation 21 and 22 that we need to explore concerning the size and shape of this HUGE City!

First, I believe that I may have mentioned that the gates are 460 miles apart (from the center of a gate to the center of the next gate, however wide the gates will be). That's a HUGE number! Just imagine being next to the city and having to travel 230 miles to the nearest gate! And, then, what if you're not going to the right gate?! How long will it take to travel to the other gates?! And, how will one ever be able to navigate within such a humongous structure?!

I believe that we can gain something from the Millennial Jerusalem, known as "Yahuwh-Shaammaah": 

Here are how it's gates, named the same as the New Jerusalem's will be, are arranged in order:

Ezekiel 48:30-35 (KJV)

30 And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures (4,500 reeds x 10.5 feet/reed x 1 mi/5,280 ft = 8.95 miles). 31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi. 32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred (4,500 reeds): and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan. 33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures (4,500 reeds): and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun. 34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred (4,500 reeds), with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali. 35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures (18,000 reeds = 35.8 miles): and the name of the city from that day shall be, "The LORD is there" (Hebrew: "YHWH-Shaammaah," I believe will be pronounced "Yahuwh-Shawmmawh").

So, the city will be laid out like this: 

We are told in 

Revelation 21:10-14 (KJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone (bloodstone), clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve (12) gates, and at the gates twelve (12) angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So, it's possible that the twelve gates are named in the same order as they were named for the smaller Millennial version of the Holy City, "nick-named" "YHWH-Shaammaah."

Also, we are told that the foundations, which I believe are foundational LEVELS to this three-dimensional city, will have in them the names of the twelve apostles ("sent ones") of the Lamb.

Originally, these were listed for us in Matthew, Mark, and Luke: 

Matthew 10:1-4 (KJV)

1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these;

The first, Simon, who is called Peter,
and Andrew his brother;
James the son of Zebedee,
and John his brother; 
3 Philip,
and Bartholomew;
Thomas,
and Matthew the publican;
James the son of Alphaeus,
and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 
4 Simon the Canaanite,
and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Mark 3:13-19 (KJV)

13 And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him. 14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, 15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils: 

16 And Simon he surnamed Peter; 
17 And James the son of Zebedee,
and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder: 
18 And Andrew,
and Philip,
and Bartholomew,
and Matthew,
and Thomas,
and James the son of Alphaeus,
and Thaddaeus,
and Simon the Canaanite, 
19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him:

and they went into an house.

Luke 6:12-16 (KJV)

12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; 

14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,)
and Andrew his brother,
James
and John,
Philip
and Bartholomew, 
15 Matthew
and Thomas,
James the son of Alphaeus,
and Simon called Zelotes, 
16 And Judas the brother of James,
and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

Most of these are in the same order, but Thomas and Matthew are switched, and so are Simon the Canaanite and called Zelotes and Lebbaeus Thaddaeus/Judas the brother of James are also switched. 

Judah from Keriot (Judas Iscariot) killed himself for his treachery and remorse, and was replaced by Matthias:

Acts 1:12-26 (KJV)

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both

Peter,
and James,
and John,
and Andrew,
Philip, and
Thomas,
Bartholomew,
and Matthew,
James the son of Alphaeus,
and Simon Zelotes,
and Judas the brother of James. 

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) 

16 "Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, 'Aceldama,' that is to say, 'The field of blood.'

20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms,

'Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein': (Psalm 69:25)

and

'his bishoprick let another take.' (Psalm 109:8)

21 "Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."

23 And they appointed two,

Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus,
and Matthias. 

24 And they prayed, and said,

"Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." 

26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

So, the order is unclear, but it seems to be ...

1. Shim'own Kefa (Simon Peter)
2. Ya`aqoV ben-Zabdaay (James the son of Zebedee)
3. Yochanan ben-Zabdaay (John the son of Zebedee)
4. Andreos (Andrew)
5. Philip
6. T'oma (Thomas)
7. Bar-Talmaay (Bartholomew) 
8. Matittyahuw haLeviy (Matthew the Levite, the publican)
9. Ya`aqoV ben-Halfai (James the son of Alphaeus)
10. Shim'own the Zealot (Simon the Zelotes)
11. Yhudah ben-Ya`aqoV (Judas the brother of James)
12. Matittyahuw (Matthias)

In any case, these 12 names will mark the foundational levels.

Therefore, it appears that these names, both from the gates, according to the clockwise order from the northwest corner, and from the foundational levels, will be a reference system - an address - in which part of the city one is located. It will probably be refined from there, for this is a VERY LARGE city!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, everyone.

Let's talk about the light of the city.

We are given several clues, both within this passage and elsewhere in Scripture.

Revelation 21:22-22:5 (KJV)

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Some think this means that the sun and the moon will no longer exist, but that is NOT what Yochanan ("John") said! What he actually said was, "the city HAD NO NEED OF the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Three Greek words are important and come into play within this verse: The Greek word "doxa" ("δόξα") translated as "glory," the Greek word "efootisen" ("ἐφώτισεν") translated as "did lighten," and "luchnos" ("λύχνος") translated as "light." "Doxa" means "something that makes something else very apparent." This can refer to the actual LIGHT that something gives off, such as that of the sun, the moon, and the stars. (See 1 Corinthians 15:40-41.) It can also refer to the SPLENDOR of something or someone, such as a king. This may be what Revelation 21:24 is about. We may also be using the word for the FAME of a dignitary!

The word "efootisen" is the third-person, singular of the aorist, indicative, active of "footizoo," which means "I light up; I shine." Thus, "efootisen" means "enlightened." God's glory ("doxa" = LIGHT) did lighten ("efootisen" = ENLIGHTENED the city!

And, the Lamb is its light ("luchnos" = LAMP)! Therefore, God's glory was its light, but the Lamb is the FLASHLIGHT shining that light! I believe this to be VERY LITERAL for Yochanan also said that "the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it."

Please note, however, that Yochanan did NOT say, that there would be no sun or moon! He just said that the CITY would have no need for them!

Psalm 89:20-37 (KJV)

20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 HIS SEED SHALL ENDURE FOR EVER, AND HIS THRONE AS THE SUN BEFORE ME.
37 IT SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOR EVER AS THE MOON, AND AS A FAITHFUL WITNESS IN HEAVEN. Selah.

So, the sun and the moon will be around FOREVER!

To confirm this, look at Isaiah!

Isaiah 66:18-24 (KJV)

18 "For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem," saith the LORD, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites," saith the LORD.

22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me," saith the LORD, "so shall your seed and your name remain."

23 "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me," saith the LORD.

24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

There's also one other passage I find fascinating!

Isaiah 24:23 (KJV)

23 "Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously!"

He is saying that the moon will be MIXED UP, and the sun OUTDONE, when YHWH Tsva'owt shall reign in Mount Zion and in Yerushalayim, and before His ancient ones BRIGHTLY!

First, the sun being outdone is obvious. Yochanan said,

Revelation 1:12-16 (KJV)

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and HIS COUNTENANCE WAS AS THE SUN SHINETH IN HIS STRENGTH.

What I LOVE about this verse is that Yesha`yahuw said, the moon will be MIXED UP in its phases! Why? Because the moon will not only be reflecting the sun, but will also be reflecting the LIGHT from Yerushalayim!