Vine Abider Posted January 4, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 202 Topics Per Day: 0.36 Content Count: 3,472 Content Per Day: 6.19 Reputation: 2,323 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Online Birthday: 04/01/2024 Author Share Posted January 4, 2023 14 hours ago, Tristen said: “Regarding your question above, I think most from the annihilation view say that there is a period before the soul is brought to nothing, and in that time there may be "weeping and gnashing of teeth."” My first comment would be that I don’t see the concept of “a period before the soul is brought to nothing” clearly articulated in Biblical text. Whereas I do see the concept of a “forever” punishment reinforced in many Biblical passages. So again, for me it comes back to what is clearly stated, and asking myself, ‘Why I would feel the need to move away from what is clearly stated?’. Is it because, in my general reading of the text, I genuinely, objectively see an alternate interpretation, or is it because I’m having a difficult time with the severity of an eternal hell (i.e. because I have a personal agenda to make the Bible say something different)? My second response is to wonder why God is being so cruel as to torture people for “a period” when the option of immediately extinguishing their existence is available to Him. I don’t understand the purpose of such torture – since no amount of suffering can pay back what is owed. If personal suffering could pay what is owed, that would be the Catholic concept of purgatory, leading eventually to eternal life, not oblivion. So why the need to torture someone if oblivion is their final destiny anyway? “However, I see that there are some pretty good persuasions that perhaps the larger number will face permeant death. Death in its simplest form means devoid of all life with no ability to respond to anything - nothingness” I think this is another semantic attempt to work-around any discomfort with the idea of a “forever” punishment. On a matter of logical consistency, if there is “a period” after our “death”, but before our “nothingness”, then “death” cannot be defined as “nothingness”. The Lake of Fire, in which the devil, the beast and false prophet “will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Rev 20:10), is called the “second death” for rebellious humans (Rev 20:14, 21:8). Rather than being “devoid of all life with no ability to respond to anything - nothingness”, this “second death” explicitly “burns with fire and brimstone” (Rev 21:8). It is therefore not “nothingness”. “For your consideration, I thought to copy a blog article here, by someone who holds a traditional view of hell, but also sees that there is some merit to be considered regarding the annihilation view too. Let's have some conversation about what he presents, okay . . . are you open to that? I think it would be a good place to start” Generally speaking, I am more interested in responding to points you raise, and am somewhat reluctant to provide rebuttals to links for the following reasons: - I don’t think it is fair for me to make arguments against someone who is not present in the conversation to defend their position. - It takes a lot more time and effort to formulate a rebuttal argument than it does to paste a link. So, before I put in that time and effort, I prefer to have some sense that the one I am in a conversation with has also put enough effort into the topic to be able to express the point for themselves. Otherwise, it’s only me thinking for myself and putting effort into the conversation, while the other side just pastes links to ready-made arguments they agree with. - Alternatively, I could just find links that agree with me. But that’s not really a conversation between us – just a regurgitation of what already exists on the internet. Having said that, I’ll make a few notes on what you pasted. Firstly, there is a strong, and recurring, insinuation that those who read the argument are inclined to not be fair-minded – to which I would respond, ‘At least give me a chance to consider your arguments before presuming to assess how fair-minded I’m being’. This is posturing, and makes the article feel like a setup – i.e. if you disagree with the argument, the author can claim, ‘See? I told you they’d be closed-minded’. It sounds like someone who is not secure in the quality of their position. And yes, as the author notes, this is a “waste” of the reader’s “time” with an irrelevant “point”. “most of the passages in the NT that talk about the fate of the wicked use language that suggests finality. Here’s just a small sampling:” This argument takes a very narrow connotation of the words, and then proceeds to ignore any contrary information on the topic. Just as one example; yes, “destruction” can mean obliteration from existence – into “nothingness”. But “everlasting destruction” (or, if you prefer, “age-long destruction”) speaks to a process of “destruction” occurring over a period (“everlasting”), and not to “finality” and “nothingness”. When you used the word “permanent” above, I had to read the next sentence to understand what you meant – because “permanent” can mean a sense of “finality”, but it can also speak to an unchanging state. This demonstrates that it’s not good enough to build an argument based on a narrow connotation of a word without considering other aspects of context. “the Bible says that the gift of immortality is only given to believers who are in Christ” This is very similar to the first argument – where a very narrow understanding of the words “life” and “death” are being applied – and where there are many examples of these words being used in scripture expressing ideas outside of this very narrow understanding. “the language of “eternality” (aionios) doesn’t always (or usually?) convey the idea of never-ending time” I think I effectively argued against this in an earlier post. The appeal to the ‘maybes’ and ‘possibilities’. i.e. ‘Sometimes this word can mean something slightly different to how it was translated. Therefore, maybe the verse we are uncomfortable with doesn’t actually mean what it says most clearly’. Occasionally, this might be a valid approach (though to build doctrine, one would need more supporting arguments beyond ‘this is at-least one possible interpretation’). Nevertheless, on a topic that is so thoroughly addressed in scripture (such as hell), basing conclusions on this approach requires ignoring the preponderance of Biblical evidence reinforcing the idea that hell is a “forever” punishment. As another thought, I think equating the concept of ‘eternity’ and “time” can be a bit tricky. Considering that God created “time” out of eternity (i.e. God’s reality ‘before’ “time” was created) – that means there is a concept of eternity that exists independently of “time”. I’ll have to have a think about how this might impact the concept of hell. Tristen - I expected a thoughtful reply from you and you didn't let me down! While I've had some time to jump around and quickly reply on the forum to other things, I want to take a little more time to reply to you . . . which I plan to do soon. (I'm sure you will be waiting with bated breath! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted January 4, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 202 Topics Per Day: 0.36 Content Count: 3,472 Content Per Day: 6.19 Reputation: 2,323 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Online Birthday: 04/01/2024 Author Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, tim_from_pa said: I believe in #2, only because the penalty for sin is death. The Bible talks about a second death, perishing and destruction where there is no more resurrection to life. This is indeed eternal punishment. The problem with #1 is if a person is conscious, then they are alive in the sense of existing. It's certainly not a pleasant existence but it is one nevertheless; a non-being and someone who is otherwise dead would not know the experience of that pain forever. So position #1 is eternal existence, except it's eternal life in misery. The Bible teaches only God is immortal and as such grants us eternal life. Man will die. Also, there is an issue with Christ's atoning death would not work if the price of sin is hell forever and ever. Let me share a thought and understanding I had recently. It's what John the baptist said. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. The Bible also teaches no mortal man can stand in the presence of God as he will die. See where this is going? Shekinah Glory, the Holy Spirit and the perishing of hell fire is all one in the same. I'm not saying that the presence of the Lord won't cause a literal conflagration and indeed will when (as the apostles warned) that the heaven and earth will perish with great heat as the Lord renovates the Earth for the next Earth age. This is the lake of fire. Unregenerate, wicked people will be raised physically, to literally burn in this fire and the presence of the Lord. Where there's a literal fire, there has to be oxygen to burn. Thus all old things are passed away, all things become new, and what was in the past will then be as if it never was. That's a blessed hope! Your comments are spurring some interesting thoughts in me! Hebrews 12:29 says "Our God is a consuming fire." So anyone standing before Him will face this fire. In 1st Corinthians 3:10-15 it talks about Christians facing the fire. Their works will either survive or get burned up, yet the person themselves will be saved. Why will the person be saved in this instance? Because they have been regenerated they have Christ in them, and Christ survives the fire. (and any works which were done via Christ in us survive) Unregenerated ones don't have Christ in them, so this fire consumes them completely. In that sense, only the new creation in Christ will survive. And as others on here are pointing out, the notion that a person's soul is eternal is likely a Greek thought which came into the church early on. If this is true, that the soul is NOT immortal, then verses that declare we were dead before regeneration seems to have better clarity. Our spirit becomes enlivened and one with the Lord's Spirit at our rebirth (1 Cor 6:17). Therefore it is a matter of what will survive the judging fire of God - nothing of the old and fallen creation will. Edited January 4, 2023 by Vine Abider Clarity 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_from_pa Posted January 4, 2023 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 449 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 302 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/13/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted January 4, 2023 21 minutes ago, Vine Abider said: Your comments are spurring some interesting thoughts in me! Hebrews 12:29 says "Our God is a consuming fire." So anyone standing before Him will face this fire. In 1st Corinthians 3:10-15 it talks about Christians facing the fire. Their works will either survive or get burned up, yet the person themselves will be saved. Why will the person be saved in this instance? Because they have been regenerated they have Christ in them, and Christ survives the fire. (and any works which were done via Christ in us survive) Unregenerated ones don't have Christ in them, so this fire consumes them completely. In that sense, only the new creation in Christ will survive. And as others on here are pointing out, the notion that a person's soul is eternal is likely a Greek thought which came into the church early on. If this is true, that the soul is NOT immortal, then verses that declare we were dead before regeneration seems to have better clarity. Our spirit becomes enlivened and one with the Lord's Spirit at our rebirth (1 Cor 6:17). Therefore it is a matter of what will survive the judging fire of God - nothing of the old and fallen creation will. Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waggles Posted January 4, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,790 Content Per Day: 0.77 Reputation: 983 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 4, 2023 Why do people believe that the lake of fire - the final judgement - is made of real physical fire and heat ?? When the dead are raised up they will have bodies and if their names are not written in the Books of Life then they are cast into the lake of fire. This is a spiritual fire that burns without consuming - something akin to being outside on a hot summer's day and feeling the discomfort of direct sunlight. Desiring shade and relief but none is to be had. I believe in scripture we have several clues to this - Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, “I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned.” Isaiah 66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. 23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. 24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” referenced by Jesus in Mark 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted January 4, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,311 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,518 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted January 4, 2023 2 hours ago, tim_from_pa said: I believe in #2, only because the penalty for sin is death. The Bible talks about a second death, perishing and destruction where there is no more resurrection to life. This is indeed eternal punishment. The problem with #1 is if a person is conscious, then they are alive in the sense of existing. It's certainly not a pleasant existence but it is one nevertheless; a non-being and someone who is otherwise dead would not know the experience of that pain forever. So position #1 is eternal existence, except it's eternal life in misery. The Bible teaches only God is immortal and as such grants us eternal life. Man will die. Also, there is an issue with Christ's atoning death would not work if the price of sin is hell forever and ever. Let me share a thought and understanding I had recently. It's what John the baptist said. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. The Bible also teaches no mortal man can stand in the presence of God as he will die. See where this is going? Shekinah Glory, the Holy Spirit and the perishing of hell fire is all one in the same. I'm not saying that the presence of the Lord won't cause a literal conflagration and indeed will when (as the apostles warned) that the heaven and earth will perish with great heat as the Lord renovates the Earth for the next Earth age. This is the lake of fire. Unregenerate, wicked people will be raised physically, to literally burn in this fire and the presence of the Lord. Where there's a literal fire, there has to be oxygen to burn. Thus all old things are passed away, all things become new, and what was in the past will then be as if it never was. That's a blessed hope! The problem you are putting creation as the means to reason with or set limitations (you are thinking from a fleshly position)... when countless times in Scripture God shows He controls the factors ... The boys in Babylon who were not touched by the fire, not even the smell of smoke on them... So if God can do this so also He is able to torment with fire and not burn up the ones in it... Or did Jesus tell a lie about Lazarus and the rich man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah7 Posted January 4, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,610 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 3,182 Days Won: 11 Joined: 05/25/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted January 4, 2023 I vote for #2–annihilationism, and this is why: As depicted in Dante's Inferno's legend, many Christians believe that an eternal searing hell fire already exists and that unsaved souls are sent there to suffer eternally. Funny thing is, even Satan himself is not being tormented in a searing hell, as he is about to be cast out of heaven and onto this planet, where he will pretend to be Jesus Christ. We know this is the Antichrist (Rev. 12:7-9): And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. - Revelation 12:7-9 I believe that the lake of fire appears at the end of the Great White Throne judgment and will last for but an instant when all that is wicked will perish, just as John 3:16 says. It will be the second death, the perishing of the soul. Consider for a moment that the Bible says the “second death,” not the “second torture.” Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waggles Posted January 4, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,790 Content Per Day: 0.77 Reputation: 983 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) Eternal life or eternal punishment / condemnation - Everything in the Bible is pretty much about TWOs - dead or living, saved or unsaved, in or out, OT and NT, two brothers, two sons, truth or lie, flesh and spirit, light and darkness, Heaven and Earth ... People want a user friendly theology of Heaven without gehenna ! An eternal condemnation in which those who suffer anguish will weep and gnash teeth for there will never be parole or release. An eternity to rue one's wrongdoings. Mar 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. Mar 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into gehenna, Mar 9:48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Amen I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it neither unto me. 46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life. Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also to them on the left, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life. The eternal fire prepared for angels is not physical flames as we know fire but rather a spiritual fire that burns without consuming. Too much theology gets in the way of the simplicity of the gospel and scripture. Read scripture and learn the spiritual principles it teaches us. Eccles 12:12 My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil. Edited January 4, 2023 by Waggles 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_from_pa Posted January 4, 2023 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 449 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 302 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/13/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted January 4, 2023 13 minutes ago, enoob57 said: The problem you are putting creation as the means to reason with or set limitations (you are thinking from a fleshly position)... when countless times in Scripture God shows He controls the factors ... The boys in Babylon who were not touched by the fire, not even the smell of smoke on them... So if God can do this so also He is able to torment with fire and not burn up the ones in it... Or did Jesus tell a lie about Lazarus and the rich man? I'm not sure what you are saying or asking. I don't fundamentally disagree with what you say here. In fact, it's when I take Scripture for what it says and think out of the churchianity box that I came to the belief that I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_from_pa Posted January 4, 2023 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 449 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 302 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/13/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted January 4, 2023 8 minutes ago, Selah7 said: I vote for #2–annihilationism, and this is why: As depicted in Dante's Inferno's legend, many Christians believe that an eternal searing hell fire already exists and that unsaved souls are sent there to suffer eternally. Funny thing is, even Satan himself is not being tormented in a searing hell, as he is about to be cast out of heaven and onto this planet, where he will pretend to be Jesus Christ. We know this is the Antichrist (Rev. 12:7-9): And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. - Revelation 12:7-9 I believe that the lake of fire appears at the end of the Great White Throne judgment and will last for but an instant when all that is wicked will perish, just as John 3:16 says. It will be the second death, the perishing of the soul. Consider for a moment that the Bible says the “second death,” not the “second torture.” Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Yes. exactly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted January 4, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 202 Topics Per Day: 0.36 Content Count: 3,472 Content Per Day: 6.19 Reputation: 2,323 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Online Birthday: 04/01/2024 Author Share Posted January 4, 2023 11 minutes ago, Selah7 said: I vote for #2–annihilationism, and this is why: I believe that the lake of fire appears at the end of the Great White Throne judgment and will last for but an instant when all that is wicked will perish, just as John 3:16 says. It will be the second death, the perishing of the soul. Consider for a moment that the Bible says the “second death,” not the “second torture.” Death is the ceasing of life, therefore no ability to respond. To me, this aligns with being gone, no more, annihilation. But while I think annihilation has merits to consider, then there's this verse in Rev 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (which was created for the devil and his angels) So some besides devil and angels go there . . . perhaps there are some we're not so aware of (pre-Adamic race perhaps?). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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