The Three Main Views of Hell

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

I very much appreciate the thorough post above^^^^^^^^^^.

 

Well now yer gonna make me hafta read the whole thing!  

[Vine Abider]

On 1/14/2023 at 5:53 PM, Tristen said:

 

The main problem I have with this argument is that it is premised on a very narrow connotation of the words “dead” and “death”.

You said, “Prior to regeneration, the bible states we were dead.  Just dead. Not living at all - no response.  But in Christ we are made alive and given eternal life”.

- So then, prior to being “made alive in Christ”, we are said to be in a state of “death”, having died “in Adam” (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22). And that “she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives” (1 Timothy 5:6). And “let the dead bury their own dead” (Matthew 8:22) etc.. These people who are said to be “dead” are, self-evidently, physically alive, sentient and responsive. In fact, we hope they are responsive so that they might respond to the Gospel. Therefore, in this dispensation of our existence, "death" does not mean “Not living at all - no response” or “nothingness”.

- The second dispensation of our existence is the period after our physical "death" and before the Lake of Fire – a.k.a. “death and Hades”. It has been suggested that this is where the “weeping and gnashing of teeth” happens for those who refused God during their life. So "dead" here also does not mean “Not living at all - no response” or “nothingness”.

- Then in the Lake of Fire (a.k.a. “the second Death”), Satanic forces experience torment (Revelation 20:10), and humans experience burning (Revelation 21:8). So yet again, "death" here does not mean “Not living at all - no response” or “nothingness”.

In each case, “death” is shown to refer to a type of conscious, experiential existence - that is distinct from the "life" of God offered through Christ. It is thus called “death” rather than "life" – though it does not refer to the absence of existence. It would therefore more accurately be characterized as eternal “death” (a conscious experience of death) rather than “eternal life”.

 

Going back I don't think I addressed this post.  Tristen - by being totally dead (i.e. no response) I mean it to denote being dead spiritually, not physically.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Vine Abider]

Just to convey a little something I picked up from a brother sharing about Revelation 20 today, but this thought probably also covers the last two chapters as well.  Without going into a lot of detail, I had this overall sense - I don't really know all I think I know about God's final judgment on man. 

Let me explain just a little.  I once thought the whole thing was quite cut and dried.  That is, anyone who doesn't hear the gospel and personally accept Christ to be born again is going into the lake of fire to be consciously tormented without end.  But several things in the book of Revelation don't seem to support this stark, black or white notion. In Rev. 14:6 an angel flying in mid-heaven preaches the "eternal gospel." Then there are nations outside the new Jerusalem, who eat the leaves of the tree of life and are healed. Matthew 25 has people who support the members of Christ by giving them food or drink, and for this they are counted righteous.

Yes, it says in Rev 20:15  "And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire."  So yes, it would certainly appear that some stiff-necked humans do go there. But perhaps my view of who is written in the book of life is a tad too narrow . . .

Edited January 23, 2023 by Vine Abider
typo

[Marathoner]

1 minute ago, Vine Abider said:

Just to convey a little something I picked up from a brother sharing about Revelation 20 today, but this thought probably also is covers the last two chapters as well.  Without going into a lot of detail I had this overall sense - I don't really know all I think I know about God's final judgment on man. 

Let me explain just a little.  I once thought the whole thing was quite cut and dried.  That is, anyone who doesn't hear the gospel and personally accept Christ to be born again is going into the lake of fire to be consciously tormented without end.  But several things in the book of Revelation don't seem to support this stark, black or white notion. In Rev. 14:6 an angel flying in mid-heaven preaches the "eternal gospel." Then there are nations outside the new Jerusalem, who eat the leaves of the tree of life and are healed. Matthew 25 has people who support the members of Christ by giving them food or drink, and for this they are counted righteous.

Yes, it says in Rev 20:15  "And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire."  So yes, it would certainly appear that some stiff-necked humans do go there. But perhaps my view of who is written in the book of life is a tad too narrow . . .

Aye, which explains what we can't answer: the estate of the dead whom the Lord spares.

There are implications here and there, perhaps, but I haven't been able to find passages of scripture which explicitly inform us regarding that matter. I can only speculate.

Some think in terms of "Spared from the lake of fire, permitted to dwell with God eternally," which is objected to. I confess that I don't accept the paradigm behind that line of reasoning. Here is my reasoning:

Whatever the Lord God does is perfect, just, and good. Therefore, whatever judgment my Lord declares is acceptable and good to me. Who am I to question the Lord? Haven't I learned by now?

Who chose me when I was a stranger? Who loved me when I was an outcast without a home? Who declared that He would prosper me even in the midst of His enemies? 

But I don't know the estate of the dead whom the Lord spares from the fire. I can only say Amen, let it be according to Your will, Lord.

I have indeed learned lessons about assuming that I know something when clearly, I do not!

The lumps on my head have lumps. 

[Waggles]

Romans 9:15  For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 
Rom 9:16  So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

1John 2:2  He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Waggles]

Psalm 11:5  The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. 
Psa 11:6  Let him rain coals on the wicked; fire and sulphur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup. 
Psa 11:7  For the LORD is righteous; he loves righteous deeds; the upright shall behold his face.

(Matthew 25:41)  “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Rev 21:8  But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”

Luke 16:23  and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 
24  And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Matthew 10:14  And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. 
15  Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

Mark 16:15  And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 
16  Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 

Matthew 3:10  Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 
11  “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 
12  His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.” 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Waggles

[Waggles]

8 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Let me explain just a little.  I once thought the whole thing was quite cut and dried.  That is, anyone who doesn't hear the gospel and personally accept Christ to be born again is going into the lake of fire to be consciously tormented without end.

Yes while scripture does teach us that those who consciously reject the gospel of salvation shall be condemned - I do not read that everybody who has ever lived in history from Genesis 1 until the day of the Lord are automatically condemned to perdition.

Deuteronomy 32:8  When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

This teaches us that human beings were under the governance of angels (aka "watchers') and that these angels failed in their duty of care and brought in false religions so that they may be worshipped rather than the God of Creation - 'ĕlôhı̂ym the Most High God.

If the great majority of people in the history of the world have been deceived by angelic beings how would it be right and just to condemn mere mortals who were delivered spiritual knowledge and divine experiences by superior spirit beings - fallen angels (aka the satan) ??

The Philistines knew of the God YHWH of Israel and what he could do - the peoples of India and China and Oceania did not know of Israel.

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Waggles

[kwikphilly]

17 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Well now yer gonna make me hafta read the whole thing!  

Blessings I think you know I thoroughly enjoy your Topics,posts and input.  Oh I would have really liked to engage in this Thread BUT I just can't get into epic saga posts,as soon as I have to scroll and scroll and scroll even more to read ONE reply- that's it for me!Seems there are a lot of frustrated novelists or bloggers on boardThey lose my attention quickly ,sorry

I like the way you post,rhyme,reason and basically a summarization which you address one point at a time as the discussion goes on- perhaps the Topic will re- surface in the near future where I can engage,I'm not looking to hear sermons

With love in Christ,Kwik

Btw,One view I see as completely contrary to Scripture is universalism 

 

[Vine Abider]

4 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings I think you know I thoroughly enjoy your Topics,posts and input.  Oh I would have really liked to engage in this Thread BUT I just can't get into epic saga posts,as soon as I have to scroll and scroll and scroll even more to read ONE reply- that's it for me!Seems there are a lot of frustrated novelists or bloggers on boardThey lose my attention quickly ,sorry

I like the way you post,rhyme,reason and basically a summarization which you address one point at a time as the discussion goes on- perhaps the Topic will re- surface in the near future where I can engage,I'm not looking to hear sermons

With love in Christ,Kwik

Btw,One view I see as completely contrary to Scripture is universalism 

 

Thanks for those encouraging words! I do try and read some of the longer posts, but usually only if they are replying specifically to me.  And even then, sometimes I just make a mental note to go back and read a longer post later, but admittedly I forget to go back sometimes. (and some lengthy posts are a little too much into self aggrandizing  . . .)

Regarding universalism, I'm with you.  I've read the arguments for it (especially in Steve Gregg's book, "The Three Views of Hell") and some people I respect gravitate toward that belief.  It sounds wonderful and all, but I can't get away from certain scriptures which state that at least some humans will go to the LOF. (now whether they are annihilated there or not is another thing).

[kwikphilly]

49 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks for those encouraging words! I do try and read some of the longer posts, but usually only if they are replying specifically to me.  And even then, sometimes I just make a mental note to go back and read a longer post later, but admittedly I forget to go back sometimes. (and some lengthy posts are a little too much into self aggrandizing  . . .)

Regarding universalism, I'm with you.  I've read the arguments for it (especially in Steve Gregg's book, "The Three Views of Hell") and some people I respect gravitate toward that belief.  It sounds wonderful and all, but I can't get away from certain scriptures which state that at least some humans will go to the LOF. (now whether they are annihilated there or not is another thing).

Glad you get what I'm talking about- it's a complete turn off/ tune out for me personally- I am more of a personal conversation type,with one ,a few or many I still desire to understand and get to know someone and not listen to them " preach" or try to " teach'' lol.  ... There's no intimacy and this is not AI,we are supposed to be Brothers & Sisters- we live,we breathe,we have a heartbeat- you know?

Anyway,couldn't agree more - I don't think humans will be ultimately annihilated,what would be the sense in torment for a time really?I don't know,God's Ways are Higher than mine.Just existing out of God's Presence ,being forsaken by God and in the realm of void,chaos and demonic presence is unthinkably horrendous to me,becoming non-existent seems inconsequential - like when you go to sleep at night and remember nothing when you wake up 

Universalism ? I see nothing in the Word of God to support that! Wouldn't that be nice,wishful thinking I suppose I think I'll read the book,I've not heard of that one before you mentioned it- sounds like an interesting read .Hell is a Topic most churches don't talk about much,Im not sure why because Jesus Did.Im not talking about the fire & brimstone preachers whos agenda was to scare the congregants into "works";imo- that wasn't Jesus Agenda at all- He Wanted to Spare us and Teach us that we should desire to do whatever we can to show our fellow man the Way.....

The thought of " hell"( in whatever capacity that is - eternal torment or outer darkness or annikation- is reason enough for me to "Forgive" anything,to Love anyone in spite of who they are or what they've done.Edone.Eternity is something my finite mind can only comprehend as a really long time,lol.   I don't believe the worst sin on this earth warrants " eternal" torment! Perhaps a thousand years,10,000 yrs or a million but forever???!! I feel sad for the worst of evil doers and pray they come to their knees before the Foot of the Cross.

Well,that's my 2 cents Brother

With love in Christ, Kwik