The Three Main Views of Hell

[Vine Abider]

13 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

As it is written, the lake of fire is the second death. The scripture does not read that those whose names are not written in the book of life are tormented forever; as we read, they are cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. That is all. 

As I shared earlier in the topic, here is where we find those who will be tormented forever in the lake of fire: And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10 NASB)

All doctrine and teaching are measured against, and therefore judged by, the testimony of scripture. The testimony of scripture is clear in this matter. 

Ahh - so unredeemed humans (without a renewed, eternal spirit) go into the LOF and are burned up, but the devil, demons & fallen angel (who are eternal) are tormented forever, right?

[Marathoner]

16 hours ago, Waggles said:

In the lake of fire people are on fire spiritually - burning without being consumed - ever thirsting and desiring for Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool their tongue, for we are in anguish in this flame - there is no joy and no hope of escape.

Contrast heat and discomfort (torment if you prefer) with 

Rev 22:1  Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 
22:2  through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The scriptures are clear in teaching that the condemnation and punishment of the wicked is forever, eternity.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man --- Luke 16:19-31 --- does not mention the lake of fire at any time, @Waggles. Where was Lazarus after his flesh and blood body perished? He was carried by angels to Abraham's arms, referred to by some as "Abraham's bosom."

Where was the rich man who had denied Lazarus in his need? 

And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms. (Luke 16:23 NASB)

The rich man was in Hades, not the lake of fire. If Hades and the lake of fire were one and the same, then why would Hades be cast into the lake of fire at the end of all things when the Son of God judges the dead? As we read above from the passage in the book of Revelation, Hades gives up all of the dead who are in it, as does Death. After the dead are liberated from Death and Hades, both Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire. And then, when they are judged by the Lord, those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man does not describe the judgment of the Lord at the end of all things. 

[Marathoner]

4 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Ahh - so unredeemed humans (without a renewed, eternal spirit) go into the LOF and are burned up, but the devil, demons & fallen angel (who are eternal) are tormented forever, right?

According to the testimony of scripture as written in the book of Revelation, it is so. 

We are wading into unknown waters, my friend. What we do know:

We whose lives are hidden in Jesus Christ are given everlasting life by the Son of the living God, who is well-pleased to grant this to us. We shall never taste death, meaning that neither Death nor Hades will contain us. As we read in the scriptures, this is the good pleasure of our Lord Jesus Christ. So therefore, not only are we promised that the second death (the lake of fire) has no power over us (it's not our concern), but we are seated with Him upon His throne in the heavenly places. Our place with the Lord is recorded in the book of Revelation, @Vine Abider. Remember those letters to the churches of Asia Minor.

But as for the dead? We only know this: they are judged according to their works (deeds) by the Lord. Those whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. We can assume many things, and I'm careful to point out the contrast between my opinion and the testimony of scripture. I'm convinced that the lake of fire is, as the scripture reads, the second death. 

I'm not accusing (nor declaring) that my brothers and sisters who interpret scripture in a manner I do not are wrong or even misled. I'm aware of the scriptural support behind the eternal suffering of man in the lake of fire, and I do not agree with the series of interpretations required to support that view of hell. I have always maintained that apart from the essential elements of eschatology --- the Son of God will return in the manner that He ascended; He shall resurrect the dead and judge them according to their works; and then when this is finished, He makes all things new --- there is much we don't know, hence those debates which carry on endlessly.  

I'm pleased to share what I'm convinced of and why, but I'm not engaging in a contest with brethren to see who is right and who is wrong. That's pointless as well as fruitless. 

With that said, what becomes of the dead who are spared by the Lord at the end of all things? That's the question, isn't it? It is! 

[Marathoner]

I was going to write something about this the other day, but I withheld my fingers from the keyboard so I could meditate upon this for a while. The Lord taught me the value of silence and taming the tongue through trials and tribulation, which describes how Jesus Christ brought me up as a member of His Body. The fire burned to ashes many things, and I was reduced to ruin when He declared that I had rendered that service which He expected of me from the beginning. I had to lose absolutely everything before walking in the knowledge that the Lord had given me everything. 

I approach scripture in a simple manner. I was never a church-goer so to speak, and I didn't occupy the pews. I was wide-eyed and clueless when the Lord snatched me up from this world and before His fire burned away the chaff (trials and tribulation), He provided a scriptural education in the essentials. I didn't listen to lectures by church speakers... I didn't study charts and diagrams, concordances and the like... I was instructed in the testimony of the scriptures instead by a man whom God sent me to. This man taught me what I needed to know (the essentials) before the burning began. 

It lasted a very long time --- 20 years or so --- until everything changed. From the ashes of my ruin, the Lord stretched forth His hand and withdrew a garment purified by His fire. This was a vision of that work which the Spirit of the Lord works in us all, how He conforms us to the image of the Son of God from glory to glory. 

Whatever I do know, I learned through suffering and deprivation. And I know this, that the Almighty is exceedingly merciful toward man, just as He was merciful toward me in the squalor of my ruin. God remembers that our frame is dust, and so I harbor a different view of the scriptural narrative than many of my fellows do. Where others see sin, I witness the triumph of the Lord who became sin for our sake; where my fellows point toward charts and all manner of contrivances, I remain silent and wait upon the Lord. I occupy myself with that work He has given me to do, and He assures me that I will neither be shocked nor dismayed by His coming. When we wait upon the Lord, we leap for joy at His coming. 

I accept the testimony of the scriptures as it is written. I haven't been schooled in "isms." Premillennialism... postmillennialism... amillennialism... eternal torment... why does that any of that matter when our place is to wait upon the Lord and His commandment?    

[Waggles]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

The scripture does not read that those whose names are not written in the book of life are tormented forever; as we read, they are cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. That is all. 

And yet there is so much scripture which teaches otherwise ... 

Psalm 11:5  The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. 
Psa 11:6  Let him rain coals on the wicked; fire and sulphur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup. 
Psa 11:7  For the LORD is righteous; he loves righteous deeds; the upright shall behold his face.
Rev 21:8  But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”

24  And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Matthew 3:10  Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 
12  His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.” 

scripture does not teach that those who are cast into the lake of fire are burned up, or vapourised, or annihilated, etc. 

 Mark 9:43  And if thy hand cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into the life maimed, rather than having two hands to go into geenna, into the unquenchable fire. 
45  And if thy foot cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into the life halt, rather than having two feet to be cast into geenna. 
47  And if thine eye cause thee to stumble, cast it out: it is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into geenna; 
48  where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 25:46  And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So as you say let us stick to scripture.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Waggles

[grahampaul]

2 hours ago, Marathoner said:

According to the testimony of scripture as written in the book of Revelation, it is so. 

We are wading into unknown waters, my friend. What we do know:

We whose lives are hidden in Jesus Christ are given everlasting life by the Son of the living God, who is well-pleased to grant this to us. We shall never taste death, meaning that neither Death nor Hades will contain us. As we read in the scriptures, this is the good pleasure of our Lord Jesus Christ. So therefore, not only are we promised that the second death (the lake of fire) has no power over us (it's not our concern), but we are seated with Him upon His throne in the heavenly places. Our place with the Lord is recorded in the book of Revelation, @Vine Abider. Remember those letters to the churches of Asia Minor.

But as for the dead? We only know this: they are judged according to their works (deeds) by the Lord. Those whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. We can assume many things, and I'm careful to point out the contrast between my opinion and the testimony of scripture. I'm convinced that the lake of fire is, as the scripture reads, the second death. 

I'm not accusing (nor declaring) that my brothers and sisters who interpret scripture in a manner I do not are wrong or even misled. I'm aware of the scriptural support behind the eternal suffering of man in the lake of fire, and I do not agree with the series of interpretations required to support that view of hell. I have always maintained that apart from the essential elements of eschatology --- the Son of God will return in the manner that He ascended; He shall resurrect the dead and judge them according to their works; and then when this is finished, He makes all things new --- there is much we don't know, hence those debates which carry on endlessly.  

I'm pleased to share what I'm convinced of and why, but I'm not engaging in a contest with brethren to see who is right and who is wrong. That's pointless as well as fruitless. 

With that said, what becomes of the dead who are spared by the Lord at the end of all things? That's the question, isn't it? It is! 

 

thats the same way scripture tells me, praise the Lord. i draw comfort in fellow believers.

bless,

[Vine Abider]

4 hours ago, Marathoner said:

With that said, what becomes of the dead who are spared by the Lord at the end of all things? That's the question, isn't it? It is! 

When we covered Rev 20 this Sunday, I had a sense regarding the 15th verse: "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire," that maybe I don't know all who will be written in this book.  That is, I have a concept that the names there are only those who accept Christ and are reborn in this lifetime, but the sense was I might not know all I think I know . . . 

[Roymond]

On 1/24/2023 at 2:31 PM, Marathoner said:

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man --- Luke 16:19-31 --- does not mention the lake of fire at any time, @Waggles. Where was Lazarus after his flesh and blood body perished? He was carried by angels to Abraham's arms, referred to by some as "Abraham's bosom."

Where was the rich man who had denied Lazarus in his need? 

And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms. (Luke 16:23 NASB)

The rich man was in Hades, not the lake of fire. If Hades and the lake of fire were one and the same, then why would Hades be cast into the lake of fire at the end of all things when the Son of God judges the dead? As we read above from the passage in the book of Revelation, Hades gives up all of the dead who are in it, as does Death. After the dead are liberated from Death and Hades, both Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire. And then, when they are judged by the Lord, those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man does not describe the judgment of the Lord at the end of all things. 

I have an illustration for Hades:  Remember the scene at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark?  the one where they put the Ark in a crate and wheel it into a huge warehouse where things just sit and gather dust?

Hades is like that warehouse.

[Amigo42]

On 1/16/2023 at 3:01 PM, Waggles said:

What evidence do you have that any of what you allege is true?

Malachi 4:1  "For look! The day is about to come, burning like an oven, and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble. The coming day will consume them," says YHWH of hosts. "It will not leave behind for them root or branch.

Psalm 21:8  Your hand will find all your enemies; your right hand will find those who hate you. 
9  You will make them like your fiery furnace at the time of your appearance. YHWH will swallow them in his wrath and fire will consume them. 
10  You will destroy their offspring from the earth, and their descendants from among the children of humankind.

 

I'm simply speaking from documented experiences and accounts for those who have had near death experiences and those who claim to have connected with their higher spirit.  

Even the passage that you stated says "It will not leave behind for them root or branch."  That sounds like complete erasure and not eternal torment.  

It seems like the God that Jesus describe seems like a completely different being than the jealous, wrathful one described in the Old Testament.  I think that it seems to show that humans have applied their characteristics to the Creator as a way of justifying their choices such as wars, slavery, etc.  I believe Jesus came to gently correct the record of God's true character which is love.

[Amigo42]

On 1/15/2023 at 6:22 PM, Waggles said:

In an environment that is timeless and without reference to days and years both eternal life and eternal condemnation simply are. There is no tomorrow or next week.

Bodies in the lake of fire are not on fire as we see wood burn, for this is a spiritual torment, a spiritual death and a spiritual punishment.

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is not just being cast out from the glory of the kingdom of light, but the most horrifying knowledge that there is no parole, no comeback, no redemption, no hope.

Luke 16:22  The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 
23  and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 
24  And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 
25  But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 
26  And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 

 

 

The only problem is that the passage you quoted basically makes the argument that I was making which is that some thing Jesus said were not meant to be taken literally.  This passage is certainly not literal as no one really thinks that someone could bring someone a drop of water in hell to cool their suffering.  

 

Here's another example of a symbolic and not to be take literal passage in the Bible.  In Jeremiah 17:27 it states

"But if you do not obey me to keep the Sabbath day holy by not carrying any load as you come through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle an unquenchable fire in the gates of Jerusalem that will consume her fortresses."

Jerusalem was burned to the ground and destroyed several times throughout history, and yet the gates of Jerusalem are not still burning to this day.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Amigo42