The Jewish Concept of the Soul

[SavedOnebyGrace]

Source: Jewish Concept of the Soul

According to the Hebrew Bible, a dead human being remains in possession of the soul upon entering Sheʾol, a shadowy place sometimes synonymous with the grave, where the vitality and energy associated with worldly life are drastically decreased.

Is the concept the Jewish people had being changed by the Greek influence in the New Testament? Is the Hebrew Bible where the idea of "soul sleep" originated from? The same Jewish words: nefesh, usually translated as "soul," and the word ruaḥ, which is often rendered as "spirit," or they the same?

[NotMyRealName]

First define terms.  What is a soul? Is it a person's entire identity or a shadow of oneself?  Or something in between?  Does it grow with the individual, and does it also decline with the individual?  If a soul includes one's undesirable qualities then loss of those would cause a person to lose some of their identity.   Good or bad.  And is there a future soul which would be the perfection of being that we were not able to achieve ourselves?  Would a baby or fetus receive the limited soul they had or a future soul?  Does the butterfly remember the worm?  If not then the worm completely died and should never have cared about what may happen to it.  We will have only opinions on this topic to be sure.  Yours, mine and others.

btw, you mentioned possibility of Greek influence, but not Persian.

Finally, you used the derogatory term "soul sleep."  The Bible over and over and over again describes death as sleep.  I have read other opinions claiming the dead body is resurrected and rejoined with the disembodied soul in heaven.  The body of flesh is dead and corrupted.  I believe we will receive a new body.  It seems odd that God would place the new body in the grave just to raise it up where the decomposed flesh is.  Besides, how would that happen to bodies obliterated by explosions and the like?  Does God need the atoms and molecules of a corpse to create a new body?  But I don't have all the answers.  Even St. Paul, who was closer to the Lord than any of us will ever be in the flesh said "now we see through a glass darkly."

[Guest]

2 hours ago, NotMyRealName said:

First define terms.  What is a soul? Is it a person's entire identity or a shadow of oneself?  Or something in between?  Does it grow with the individual, and does it also decline with the individual?  If a soul includes one's undesirable qualities then loss of those would cause a person to lose some of their identity.   Good or bad.  And is there a future soul which would be the perfection of being that we were not able to achieve ourselves?  Would a baby or fetus receive the limited soul they had or a future soul?  Does the butterfly remember the worm?  If not then the worm completely died and should never have cared about what may happen to it.  We will have only opinions on this topic to be sure.  Yours, mine and others.

The Hebrew Bible uses the same Jewish words: nefesh, usually translated as "soul," and the word ruaḥ, which is often rendered as "spirit," are they the same? In some Hebrew literature I read they were talking about putting the soul back into the Hebrew Bible. (where I guess it was replaced by spirit) Well I've spent quite a bit of time studying Genesis with Dr. Michael S. Heiser and that subject came up there also. So I decided to ask the question here.

To my understanding, the Hebrews did not understand the function of the brain. Where is the soul? Where is the spirit? At least in the NT, there is a Greek influence. There may also be a Persian influence starting with the Jewish diaspora.

2 hours ago, NotMyRealName said:

btw, you mentioned possibility of Greek influence, but not Persian.

Finally, you used the derogatory term "soul sleep."  The Bible over and over and over again describes death as sleep.  I have read other opinions claiming the dead body is resurrected and with the disembodied soul in heaven.  The body of flesh is dead and corrupted.  I believe we will receive a new body.  It seems odd that God would place the new body in the grave just to raise it up where the decomposed flesh is.  Besides, how would that happen to bodies obliterated by explosions and the like?  Does God need the atoms and molecules of a corpse to create a new body?  But I don't have all the answers.  Even St. Paul, who was closer to the Lord than any of us will ever be in the flesh said "now we see through a glass darkly."

Yes, "soul sleep" is not the best way to describe the Jewish concept of soul. "Neshama" is another Hebrew word used for soul. Soul, spirit and heart can all be acceptable translations into English. Since the people of that time did not understand the function of the brain, a lot of Jewish words should be understood with that in mind. I don't have the answers either. But I believe God created us, male and female, by the spark of life that has now been photographed by science. I don't believe decomposition would prevent God from giving us new bodies.

Think of abortion. When the smallest part of a zygote is created by man and woman as blessed by God, that living being doesn't became a non-living being because of its location, growth, health, etc. The DNA from man and woman form a new creation, by God's blessing. My wife and I lost our first child because of location, an ectopic pregnancy. In our case, there was no choice, two deaths versus one. My wife and I were blessed to have a second pregnancy, but unfortunately she had a miscarriage. So we have two children in Heaven who we believe have had the perfect person to raise them, Jesus. I hope they have at least six or more of our dogs with them but whatever, the Lord's will is mine.

[Retrobyter]

On 1/4/2023 at 5:43 PM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Source: Jewish Concept of the Soul

According to the Hebrew Bible, a dead human being remains in possession of the soul upon entering Sheʾol, a shadowy place sometimes synonymous with the grave, where the vitality and energy associated with worldly life are drastically decreased.

Is the concept the Jewish people had being changed by the Greek influence in the New Testament? Is the Hebrew Bible where the idea of "soul sleep" originated from? The same Jewish words: nefesh, usually translated as "soul," and the word ruaḥ, which is often rendered as "spirit," or they the same?

Shalom, Saved.One.by.Grace.

I didn't realize you had started this post, or I would have chimed in by now.

Your right that the Hebrew word "nefesh" was translated as "soul," and that the Hebrew word "ruwach" ("ruaḥ") was translated as "spirit."

However, the definition of these words is FAR SIMPLER than what you're making them out to be.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And, the Hebrew of this verse is ...

וַיִּיצֶר֩ יְהוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַֽיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה׃

This transliterates to ...

7 Vayyiytser YHWH 'Elohiym 'et-haa'aadaam `aafaar min-haa'adaamaah vayyipach b'apaayow nishmat chayyiym vayhiy haa'aadaam lnefesh chayyaah:

This translates word-for-word to ...

7 And-formed YHWH God (d.o.->)-the-red-[man] of-dust from-the-red-[ground] and-puffed into-his-nostrils a-puff of-living-things and-became the-red-[man] into-a-breathing-creature living.

The Hebrew word נֶפֶשׁ (nefesh) is defined in the Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance as ...

5315 nefesh (nephesh) נֶפֶשׁ (neh'-fesh). From naafash (naphash); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it. 

It is a noun, and it stems from the root word, naafash, which is a verb:

5314 naafash (naphash) נָפַשׁ (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

These entries are based upon a unique key number (5315) and a transliteration (nefesh, which is mine) and I put in parentheses any other transliteration by which it might be known, (nephesh). Then, there's the actual word as written in Hebrew block letters (נֶפֶשׁ). This is followed by a pronunciation key (neh-fesh'). Then, if known, the origin of the word is put in the definition. THEN, we come to the actual definition of the Hebrew word [a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; ised very widely in a literal, accomodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)]. Finally, after the colon and dash (: --), the entry gives all the English words with which this word was translated into the King James Version of the Bible. 

So, the verse could be written,

"And YHWH God formed the red man of dust from the red ground and puffed into his nostrils a puff of living-things, and the red man became into a living, breathing creature." 

Thus, a "soul" is the "breathing creature" into which the red man (Adam) was made when God puffed the puff of living things into the man YHWH God had made.

So, the man ("the body") had a puff of air added to it, as in rescue breathing in the CPR method, and the man became a living, air-breathing creature - a "soul!"

Naafash means "to breathe"; so
nefesh means "a breathing creature."

Sh'owl is the Grave. When a "breathing creature" no longer is "breathing," he or she no longer is a "breathing creature," no longer a "soul!" So, they place the "gviyah" in the ground and it goes back to dust.

That would be it ..., UNLESS, one, like the P'rushiym ("Pharisees"), of whom was the Apostle Paul, believed in the RESURRECTION! When the Messiah comes (a SECOND time, btw), He will send out His messengers and resurrect His people from all over the world, and they will gather them to Him!

[Guest]

The KJV is based on the Greek various non English translations that came before it with a Greek understanding, missing the Hebrew understanding of the Bible.

[WilliamL]

From https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1027-the-three-heavens/

" The three heavens in order consist of:

3rd (lowest): Soul (Hebr. nephesh/Grk. psuche). “The soul of the flesh is in the blood." Gen. 9:4; Lev. 17:11 Soul/nephesh is the level of developmental consciousness of the seed of Israel, and corresponds to the laver section of the Temple: the water of the washing of repentance. The lowest heaven pertains to all those who keep YHWH’s Covenant of 10 Commandments, given to Israel at Mount Sinai – with plenty of grace applied, of course. This heaven is called the Garden, also Paradise.

2nd (middle): Spirit (ruach/pneuma.) The Church is a spiritual/pneumatikos body. This corresponds to the Holy Place of the Temple, the place of the 7 Spirits (the 7 Lights of the Menorah), and the Word of Truth (the Table of Showbread). This level pertains to those who have true faith in Jesus, and are led by the Holy Spirit – again, with grace applied. This is the place of the Court, wherein the angelic Powers have convened in the past (e.g. Job 1:6); and are soon to convene again for the Judgment of God, in the company of the elect of the human race. Dan. 7:9-10ff.; Rev. 4-5; 7:9ff.

1st (highest/preeminent): Breath-Light (neshamah/emphusao). This is the level of the “revealed sons of God” (Rom. 8:19), and corresponds to the Most Holy Place of the Temple. This highest heaven pertains to ones called to come nearest to the Light of the Presence/Face of God (Luke 1:19; Rev. 6:16, etc.), who do not observe Him from afar off, nor turn away their faces out of shame because of unwashed (unrepented) sins. Rev. 3:21; 12:5

Again, all of these things are forms and degrees of spiritual consciousness.

In the Temple, the level of the altar of fleshly sacrifice is that of all persons who live according to the desires of the flesh. One must sacrifice one’s carnal desires; only then can one be washed in the laver of water baptism, in order to enter into the two chambers of the Holy Sanctuary. The altar is the level of our material world, which must be purified by fire.

In sum, the heavens represent degrees of holiness: soul, spirit, and very breath. The flesh must be purified by the soul [taught via the Sinai Covenant], the soul must be purified by the Spirit [brought via the Last Supper Covenant], and the spirit must be purified by the emanated breath-light of the Holy One, when the Lord appears in the light of his glory. "

See also https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1297-the-levels-and-origins-of-loves-and-their-ultimate-fulfillment/

[SavedOnebyGrace]

On 1/4/2023 at 7:23 PM, NotMyRealName said:

First define terms.  What is a soul? Is it a person's entire identity or a shadow of oneself?  Or something in between?  Does it grow with the individual, and does it also decline with the individual?  If a soul includes one's undesirable qualities then loss of those would cause a person to lose some of their identity.   Good or bad.  And is there a future soul which would be the perfection of being that we were not able to achieve ourselves?  Would a baby or fetus receive the limited soul they had or a future soul?  Does the butterfly remember the worm?  If not then the worm completely died and should never have cared about what may happen to it.  We will have only opinions on this topic to be sure.  Yours, mine and others.

I was presenting background for questions that are rarely discussed.

On 1/4/2023 at 7:23 PM, NotMyRealName said:

btw, you mentioned possibility of Greek influence, but not Persian.

That's certainly worthy of serious discussion.

On 1/4/2023 at 7:23 PM, NotMyRealName said:

Finally, you used the derogatory term "soul sleep."  The Bible over and over and over again describes death as sleep.  I have read other opinions claiming the dead body is resurrected and rejoined with the disembodied soul in heaven.  The body of flesh is dead and corrupted.  I believe we will receive a new body.  It seems odd that God would place the new body in the grave just to raise it up where the decomposed flesh is.  Besides, how would that happen to bodies obliterated by explosions and the like?  Does God need the atoms and molecules of a corpse to create a new body?  But I don't have all the answers.  Even St. Paul, who was closer to the Lord than any of us will ever be in the flesh said "now we see through a glass darkly."

I don't believe in soul sleep, but some Christians do. I'd like to understand how they justify their beliefs.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

On 3/17/2023 at 11:04 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Saved.One.by.Grace.

I didn't realize you had started this post, or I would have chimed in by now.

Your right that the Hebrew word "nefesh" was translated as "soul," and that the Hebrew word "ruwach" ("ruaḥ") was translated as "spirit."

However, the definition of these words is FAR SIMPLER than what you're making them out to be.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And, the Hebrew of this verse is ...

וַיִּיצֶר֩ יְהוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַֽיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה׃

This transliterates to ...

7 Vayyiytser YHWH 'Elohiym 'et-haa'aadaam `aafaar min-haa'adaamaah vayyipach b'apaayow nishmat chayyiym vayhiy haa'aadaam lnefesh chayyaah:

This translates word-for-word to ...

7 And-formed YHWH God (d.o.->)-the-red-[man] of-dust from-the-red-[ground] and-puffed into-his-nostrils a-puff of-living-things and-became the-red-[man] into-a-breathing-creature living.

The Hebrew word נֶפֶשׁ (nefesh) is defined in the Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance as ...

5315 nefesh (nephesh) נֶפֶשׁ (neh'-fesh). From naafash (naphash); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it. 

It is a noun, and it stems from the root word, naafash, which is a verb:

5314 naafash (naphash) נָפַשׁ (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

These entries are based upon a unique key number (5315) and a transliteration (nefesh, which is mine) and I put in parentheses any other transliteration by which it might be known, (nephesh). Then, there's the actual word as written in Hebrew block letters (נֶפֶשׁ). This is followed by a pronunciation key (neh-fesh'). Then, if known, the origin of the word is put in the definition. THEN, we come to the actual definition of the Hebrew word [a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; ised very widely in a literal, accomodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)]. Finally, after the colon and dash (: --), the entry gives all the English words with which this word was translated into the King James Version of the Bible. 

So, the verse could be written,

"And YHWH God formed the red man of dust from the red ground and puffed into his nostrils a puff of living-things, and the red man became into a living, breathing creature." 

Thus, a "soul" is the "breathing creature" into which the red man (Adam) was made when God puffed the puff of living things into the man YHWH God had made.

So, the man ("the body") had a puff of air added to it, as in rescue breathing in the CPR method, and the man became a living, air-breathing creature - a "soul!"

Naafash means "to breathe"; so
nefesh means "a breathing creature."

Sh'owl is the Grave. When a "breathing creature" no longer is "breathing," he or she no longer is a "breathing creature," no longer a "soul!" So, they place the "gviyah" in the ground and it goes back to dust.

That would be it ..., UNLESS, one, like the P'rushiym ("Pharisees"), of whom was the Apostle Paul, believed in the RESURRECTION! When the Messiah comes (a SECOND time, btw), He will send out His messengers and resurrect His people from all over the world, and they will gather them to Him!

I like what you've done here. But how do you see God separates breathing creatures, human beings from animals? 

[SavedOnebyGrace]

I am sorry I've left this topic rust, but it seems like you've all done excellent without me. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by SavedOnebyGrace