Evolution's Achilles Heel ~ ~ Book, 9 Ph.D Scientists and Doctors ~ ~ Discussion

[The Barbarian]

That is?    I thought I had answered them all.    What do you think I missed?

14 minutes ago, Starise said:

Maybe it's something I'm missing.

Well, if it comes to you, ask me, and I'll try to give you an answer.

 

[Starise]

Just now, The Barbarian said:

That is?    I thought I had answered them all.    What do you think I missed?

Well, if it comes to you, ask me, and I'll try to give you an answer.

 

Irrelevant to progress and a good example of you using that skillset to move away from any solid explanations.

I'll ask again.

How is discussion of angels and men's souls relevant to a thread on evolution? If you already answered it and I missed it, please reiterate in condensed form. Thanks.

[The Barbarian]

Not a biological body.   A metaphysical body, actually.   Physical bodies can't move through matter, as Jesus did.

16 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

OK, define and describe the difference.  

A physical body is limited to the physical universe.  It's made of matter that is bound to the laws of physics.    But the physical universe is a special place with special rules.

A metaphysical body is not limited by the laws of the physical universe.    Hence, able to move through matter, as Jesus' body did.

[The Barbarian]

2 minutes ago, Starise said:

How is discussion of angels and men's souls relevant to a thread on evolution?

Don't know.   I was just responding to questions of others.

The angels, not being a population of biological things, do not evolve.  I think FreeGrace first brought them up in this discussion.

 

 

 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

Hmm... scholars have shown that Jericho, for example, is over 12,000 years old.  And humans have been around long before that, from scholars who have dated that evidence.

Scholars seem to show a lot of things, many which contradict what other scholars show.  Where's the error in back dating historical events to come up with Adam being on earth about 6,000 years ago?  And what evidence has beens shown that date Jericho to 12,000 years.

2 Peter 3:8 - But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

This verse is in the middle of a context about origins.  If Peter was only making a point that time is irrelevant to God, or some such thing, it seems out of place.

What makes sense is that Peter was summarizing the history of mankind.  The 6 days of restoration would coincide with human history up to the point of the MK, and the 7th day of rest coincides with the MK.  If that is so, it would seem from all the accelerated evil lately, esp in these United States, we would be at the very threshold of the Tribulation.  

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

Yes, and there is abundant evidence for those.  I'm just pointing out that Jericho rules out a 6,000 year-old Earth.

Kinda depends on the veracity of evidence.

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

They didn't exist farther back.   They all have a common ancestor.

That means ONE race.

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

    They evolved into different races of H. sapiens.

Who can explain how that happened?  Just a "poof!!" and ta-da?

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

    Our particular race evolved in Africa, but later moved out into Europe and Asia and Australia, and interbred with the others.    This is why we carry some of their genes.

No, "we" carry "some of their genes because we ALL came from Adam and Eve.

For me, a different "race" would mean different origins, which gives rise to the evil human tendency to 'rank' races;  some more or less superior to others.  All of which is nonsense.

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

I don't see where it says angels feast and drink.

I don't either.  But Jesus said He would drink wine in the kingdom.  And there are mentions of a wedding supper/feast for resurrected saints.  So the question is;  where does all that food go, if there is no biology.

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

   But I'm bemused by the notion that there are restrooms in Heaven.

So you're suggesting that there may be some biology involved.  However, the only ones currently in heaven are souls without bodies.  So no restrooms needed.

And all saints in heaven will come back to earth to receive their resurrection body, and those "alive and remaining" get theirs after the dead saints, and then all believers settle back to earth to reign/serve in the MK.  

So, if there are restrooms for glorified believers, it will be on earth, not heaven.

Ever think that those who are "alive and remain" will never get to heaven?  

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

    Since there will be no marriage in Heaven, I suppose their would only have to be one for each hall.

We have them now.  Called 'unisex' restrooms.   

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

Not a biological body.   A metaphysical body, actually.   Physical bodies can't move through matter, as Jesus did.

A physical body is limited to the physical universe.  It's made of matter that is bound to the laws of physics.    But the physical universe is a special place with special rules.

A metaphysical body is not limited by the laws of the physical universe.    Hence, able to move through matter, as Jesus' body did.

Thanks.

[The Barbarian]

Hmm... scholars have shown that Jericho, for example, is over 12,000 years old.  And humans have been around long before that, from scholars who have dated that evidence.

1 minute ago, FreeGrace said:

Scholars seem to show a lot of things, many which contradict what other scholars show.  

The date of the earliest buildings at Jericho is not controversial with scholars.

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Where's the error in back dating historical events to come up with Adam being on earth about 6,000 years ago?

Comes down to evidence.   Adam was a lot farther back than that.

3 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

And what evidence has beens shown that date Jericho to 12,000 years.

Sediments...radioisotopes... geomagnetic data...artifacts like ceramics.

16 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

2 Peter 3:8 - But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

This verse is in the middle of a context about origins.  If Peter was only making a point that time is irrelevant to God, or some such thing, it seems out of place.

Seems pretty weak to me.   It's like finding an arrow in a tree, and drawing a bulls-eye around it.

Yes, and there is abundant evidence for those.  I'm just pointing out that Jericho rules out a 6,000 year-old Earth.

18 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Kinda depends on the veracity of evidence.

I figure that the guys who actually understand it, are the gold standard.

All races of humans, modern humans, Neanderthals, Denisovans, and one yet-undetermined race, had a common ancestor.

18 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

That means ONE race.

No.   For example today we see different races of other species evolve.  In fact, new species sometimes are observed to evolve.   They evolved into different races of H. sapiens.

21 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Who can explain how that happened? 

Biologists.  Happened by mutations and natural selection.    Neandertals, for example were compact and very robust, fitted to colder climates.

Our particular race evolved in Africa, but later moved out into Europe and Asia and Australia, and interbred with the others.    This is why we carry some of their genes.

23 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

No, "we" carry "some of their genes because we ALL came from Adam and Eve.

Not possible    Adam and Eve could have had, at most, 4 alleles for each gene locus.   Yet there are dozens today for most genes.    The rest evolved over time.

24 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

For me, a different "race" would mean different origins

That's not what the word means.   If you don't use words as they are commonly used, you will be always misunderstood.

24 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

which gives rise to the evil human tendency to 'rank' races;  some more or less superior to others.  All of which is nonsense.

The nonsense is in supposing that there are any biological human races today.    Races now are merely cultural assumptions.

25 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't see where it says angels feast and drink.

 

26 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't either.  But Jesus said He would drink wine in the kingdom.

But Jesus is not merely a spirit.   He's a man.

26 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

But I'm bemused by the notion that there are restrooms in Heaven.

 

26 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

So you're suggesting that there may be some biology involved.

No, I'm suggesting that the idea of biological bodies in Heaven is absurd.

27 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Since there will be no marriage in Heaven, I suppose their would only have to be one for each hall.

 

27 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

We have them now.  Called 'unisex' restrooms.

Except there is no sex in Heaven. 

 

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Hmm... scholars have shown that Jericho, for example, is over 12,000 years old.  And humans have been around long before that, from scholars who have dated that evidence.

The date of the earliest buildings at Jericho is not controversial with scholars.

Do you know the method of dating?  What?  C-14?

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Comes down to evidence.   Adam was a lot farther back than that.

There's plenty of evidence for a very old earth.  Not sure how much includes humans that far back.  Again, depends on the methods of dating.

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Yes, and there is abundant evidence for those.  I'm just pointing out that Jericho rules out a 6,000 year-old Earth.

The wording of Gen 1:2 clearly shows something major happened to the planet, so that God had to restore it for man's use.  All without scientific measurements.

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

I figure that the guys who actually understand it, are the gold standard.

All races of humans, modern humans, Neanderthals, Denisovans, and one yet-undetermined race, had a common ancestor.

For me, that would rule out more than one race.  With one common ancestor, that's all that's needed for 'race'.

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

For example today we see different races of other species evolve.  In fact, new species sometimes are observed to evolve.   They evolved into different races of H. sapiens.

What is the criteria for a different race of humans?  Are you saying there is some kind of spontaneous genetic change big enough to result in a different 'race'.  How in the world?

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Biologists.  Happened by mutations and natural selection.    Neandertals, for example were compact and very robust, fitted to colder climates.

That doesn't mean a different race.  How were they "fitted" to colder climates?  What does that mean?  Thicker skin, higher tolerances for lower temps?  That's just adaptation.  That's not a 'different race'.

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Our particular race evolved in Africa, but later moved out into Europe and Asia and Australia, and interbred with the others.    This is why we carry some of their genes.

A common ancestor means one race.  That's where I stop counting.  Adaptations for scenery scenarios doesn't lead to 'different races'.

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Not possible    Adam and Eve could have had, at most, 4 alleles for each gene locus.   Yet there are dozens today for most genes.    The rest evolved over time.

What is the generator for such "evolving"?

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

But Jesus is not merely a spirit.   He's a man.

The man-God.

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

No, I'm suggesting that the idea of biological bodies in Heaven is absurd.

Right.  I didn't suggest that.  I asked a question about eating in heaven.

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Except there is no sex in Heaven. 

I think you are confusing the verb with the noun.   

[RV_Wizard]

22 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

What is the criteria for a different race of humans?  Are you saying there is some kind of spontaneous genetic change big enough to result in a different 'race'.  How in the world?

Let's see what ol' Chuck Darwin had to say about race.

“At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.”

Evolution inspired the notion of a "Master race" and inferior races, which led to the second world war.  Between 70 million and 85 million people died because of it.  Darwin believed that Negros, Indians and other less modern groups were actually lesser evolved.  In other words; they were inferior.

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Do you know the method of dating?  What?  C-14?

At least some of it.   We are lucky that lake varves allow us to precisely calibrate C-14 over time.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/radiocarbon/article/new-14c-determinations-from-lake-suigetsu-japan-12000-to-0-cal-bp/40DDF6F5D4329EE81C6E83F713EAB698

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

There's plenty of evidence for a very old earth.  Not sure how much includes humans that far back.  Again, depends on the methods of dating.

It's not just radioisotope dating.   But that is very useful and accurate. 

Yet another technique, magnetostratigraphy, studies the magnetic signatures left in rocks by Earth’s magnetic field as its orientation slowly shifts.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-scientists-determine-the-ages-of-human-ancestors-fossilized-dinosaurs-and-other-organisms/

And the particular stratum is another way to get an age of fossils.  

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

The wording of Gen 1:2 clearly shows something major happened to the planet, so that God had to restore it for man's use.  All without scientific measurements.

But humans wouldn't have been in that.  So anything with human artifacts or fossils is post-catastrophic.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

or me, that would rule out more than one race.  With one common ancestor, that's all that's needed for 'race'.

We see new races of animals evolve from time to time.   Even new species.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

What is the criteria for a different race of humans?  Are you saying there is some kind of spontaneous genetic change big enough to result in a different 'race'.  How in the world?

Well, as in humans, it's mostly by natural selection.   There are always random mutations.   Any that happen favor survival tend to be retained.  Over time, that accumulates.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

What is the generator for such "evolving"?

Mutations and natural selection.   Same as we see working today.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

The man-God.

Yes.  Wholly man and wholly God.    So not surprising that He has human qualities.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Right.  I didn't suggest that.  I asked a question about eating in heaven.

Apparently, it goes on.    It is a pleasure for most of us.   If it didn't cause us to gain weight, it would be wonderful.   

Except there is no sex in Heaven.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I think you are confusing the verb with the noun.   

In heaven, it would be like a screen door on a submarine.