Rev 20, literal, symbolic, spiritual.

[abcdef]

On 2/12/2023 at 4:45 AM, Diaste said:

As I have said many times the 1st resurrection of Rev 20 is a protos resurrection. That's chief, important, special, etc.

1 Cor 15:23-24, indicates 2 resurrections, Jesus first fruits and then those who are His at His coming.

These 2 resurrections are different in that they are to eternal life.

Jesus was the first, it says, then there can be no others who were resurrected before Him, in this way.

Consider, that this is the protos resurrection, chief, special, first.

 

On 2/12/2023 at 4:45 AM, Diaste said:

In addition the idea of 'prote' is first of what follows. So in truth it's the chief resurrection of two resurrections at the end of the age.

The two resurrections spoken of by Paul are Jesus and a second resurrection.

Paul calls Jesus the first.

Consider that the 1st resurrection of Rev 20 is Jesus, the first, the protos.

Some say that it is not Jesus, but this is caused by a misinterpretation of the time lines and entities by pretrib.

The first resurrection is, literally, the first resurrection, Jesus.

The 2nd resurrection of Rev 20 is, literally, the second resurrection, also known as the resur/rapt., and the second coming for salvation, Heb 9:28.

Part of the confusion is that Jesus reigns over the kingdom from heaven during the mill, and does not reign from planet earth, much has been assumed about this.

Jesus literally reigns, but it does not say that He is on this planet, in the Rev 20 passage.

 

On 2/12/2023 at 4:45 AM, Diaste said:

In the timeline of all resurrections of all time it would probably be the 20th resurrection. This is why we can know it's not first in order from Adam, but 1st in order of what ensues and the chief of what follows. 

The resurrection of Jesus was the first, of it's kind. There is only one more, that is, when Jesus comes for the kingdom.

The events surrounding these resurrections has become so distorted that it is hard to undo.

If you look closely, then you may see a break in the timeline between Rev 19, and Rev 20.

Rome, JW's, and others have distorted the timelines and entities.

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

1 Cor 15:23-24, indicates 2 resurrections, Jesus first fruits and then those who are His at His coming.

These 2 resurrections are different in that they are to eternal life.

Jesus was the first, it says, then there can be no others who were resurrected before Him, in this way.

Consider, that this is the protos resurrection, chief, special, first.

Well, I think it is in truth.

Firstfruits of a harvest were of the harvest. It wasn't some separate harvest, it was the first of what ever crop taken out of the bulk of the harvest that was coming. 

For instance, it could be the first bushel of wheat. There were still 1000 bushels of wheat to be harvested, but the firstfruits and all the rest of the wheat are of the same harvest, not two different ones.  

 

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

Some say that it is not Jesus, but this is caused by a misinterpretation of the time lines and entities by pretrib.

The first resurrection is, literally, the first resurrection, Jesus.

And those that are His at His coming, the bulk of the same spring or fall harvest. All of the same resurrection.

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

The 2nd resurrection of Rev 20 is, literally, the second resurrection, also known as the resur/rapt., and the second coming for salvation, Heb 9:28.

Part of the confusion is that Jesus reigns over the kingdom from heaven during the mill, and does not reign from planet earth, much has been assumed about this.

Jesus literally reigns, but it does not say that He is on this planet, in the Rev 20 passage.

It does in an oblique way. Zechariah 14:16-21 pretty much seals the deal. He reigns on earth.

I don't know what you think but I'm convinced the Mount of Olives is on earth, east of Jerusalem

"Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, "

 

[truth7t7]

19 hours ago, abcdef said:

Dan 11:2, Persia, the silver of the statue in Dan 2. And Greece, the brass of the statue of Dan.2.

Antiochus of Greece is the Antichrist spoken of here.

This is not the Antichrist the Jesus was referring to.

The Antichrist that Jesus spoke about was Caesar and Rome, who was Titus, who destroyed the temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Antiochus did not regard the Greek Gods of his fathers. 

You teach the standard reformed preterist eschatology in 70AD fulfillment "False"

As was clearly shown, the evil human man seen in Daniel 11:37 will be a "Future" King/Ruler of Hebrew/Jew decent

I Disagree With Reformed Preterist Eschatology, In Antiochus Epiphanies 167BC and Titus in 70AD fulfillment, "False"

Daniel 11:37 is a "Future" human man, that will be present on earth at the "Future" second coming (The End)

Jesus Is The Lord

Edited February 14, 2023 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well, I think it is in truth.

Firstfruits of a harvest were of the harvest. It wasn't some separate harvest, it was the first of what ever crop taken out of the bulk of the harvest that was coming. 

For instance, it could be the first bushel of wheat. There were still 1000 bushels of wheat to be harvested, but the firstfruits and all the rest of the wheat are of the same harvest, not two different ones.  

 

And those that are His at His coming, the bulk of the same spring or fall harvest. All of the same resurrection.

It does in an oblique way. Zechariah 14:16-21 pretty much seals the deal. He reigns on earth.

I don't know what you think but I'm convinced the Mount of Olives is on earth, east of Jerusalem

"Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, "

 

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 clearly states that when Jesus Christ returns the resurrection takes place "Then Cometh The End", there isn't a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth seen between verses 23-24 below its (The End)

1 Corinthians 15:23-24KJV

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

[truth7t7]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

It does in an oblique way. Zechariah 14:16-21 pretty much seals the deal. He reigns on earth.

I don't know what you think but I'm convinced the Mount of Olives is on earth, east of Jerusalem

"Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, "

 

Zechariah 14 Is The "Eternal Kingdom"

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

[truth7t7]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

It does in an oblique way. Zechariah 14:16-21 pretty much seals the deal. He reigns on earth.

I don't know what you think but I'm convinced the Mount of Olives is on earth, east of Jerusalem

"Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, "

 

Zechariah 14:16 Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV

3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Revelation 21:24-27KJV

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

[abcdef]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well, I think it is in truth.

Firstfruits of a harvest were of the harvest. It wasn't some separate harvest, it was the first of what ever crop taken out of the bulk of the harvest that was coming. 

Ok, I agree.

 

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

For instance, it could be the first bushel of wheat. There were still 1000 bushels of wheat to be harvested, but the firstfruits and all the rest of the wheat are of the same harvest, not two different ones. 

I agree. Looking from the heavenly viewpoint, of the entire creation and eternity, the harvest of souls, from planet earth, is between 33 AD and  our near future. After Jesus comes for the kingdom, that is the end of the harvest. The souls are either brought into the heavenly kingdom or the tares/chaff are burned.

 

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

And those that are His at His coming, the bulk of the same spring or fall harvest. All of the same resurrection.

Well, here is the problem with that. Jesus was the first fruits, of the harvest of souls.

But He has not yet returned for the kingdom. That means that there is at least 1990 years between the 33 AD resurrection of Jesus and when He comes for the kingdom.

------

Jesus is literally the first resurrection, yes?

In Rev 20, why would there be any reason, to change the 1st resurrection from being Jesus to mean something else?

I mean many put such emphasis on things being literal, but when it says 1st resurrection in Rev 20, they say, "That is not actually the first resurrection, it is not Jesus' resurrection, it is literally some other resurrection, the 3rd, or 4th etc.".

See what I am saying? If it says the 1st resurrection, it means exactly, literally, the resurrection of Jesus, and Paul said that Jesus is the first.

Now I know why that is changed from being the resurrection of Jesus to be the 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc resurrection. It is because some need to change the meaning to fit the pretrib timeline.

So instead of recognizing and just accepting, that the 1st resurrection is Jesus, as Paul said it was the first, some say, "It can't be the first, because that would throw off the pretrib timeline".

Well, the pretrib timeline is wrong, and not the mill timeline.

The Rev 20 timeline begins with the resurrection of Jesus in 33 AD, and continues with the second resurrection where Jerusalem is shown to be surrounded.

This matches with the 1 Cor 15:23-24 timeline. If one adds additional resurrections, then the resurrection timelines do not match up correctly. 

(The timelines must agree with the Dan 2, and Dan 7, timelines to be correct. That is where the pretrib timelines fail the test)

 

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

It does in an oblique way. Zechariah 14:16-21 pretty much seals the deal. He reigns on earth.

I don't know what you think but I'm convinced the Mount of Olives is on earth, east of Jerusalem

"Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, "

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 2/11/2023 at 10:45 AM, abcdef said:

The dragon v 2, is not a literal dragon.

Rev. 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Yes, a literal dragon is how Satan sometimes manifested. Satan manifested in whatever form his spirit was in. Sometimes this, sometimes that; such as, "an angel of light." 2 Cor. 11:14 Angelic spirits have this capacity to manifest in different material forms, which are only temporary garments to them.

Postscript: the rebellious fallen angels that intermarried with women apparently became so debased in their carnality that they became stuck in the material bodies that they had originally donned as temporary garments. The same fate apparently will befall Satan when he is cast out of heaven to the earth.

On 2/11/2023 at 4:05 PM, abcdef said:

Name one saint, that is shown in the Bible that was beheaded for the Word of God?

History tells us that Paul was beheaded by the Romans; also other Christians in the Coliseum. Many other saints have since been beheaded by the Muslims, including in our days.

Edited February 14, 2023 by WilliamL

[WilliamL]

23 hours ago, abcdef said:

The two resurrections spoken of by Paul are Jesus and a second resurrection.

Paul calls Jesus the first.

Consider that the 1st resurrection of Rev 20 is Jesus, the first, the protos.

Some say that it is not Jesus, but this is caused by a misinterpretation of the time lines and entities by pretrib.

The first resurrection is, literally, the first resurrection, Jesus.

The 2nd resurrection of Rev 20 is, literally, the second resurrection, also known as the resur/rapt., and the second coming for salvation, Heb 9:28.

Diaste has it right. Prote in the context of Rev. 20 is more correctly translated "foremost, or preeminent." From my blog on this subject:

In the context of Revelation 20, the Greek word πρωτη primarily means FIRST (FOREMOST) IN PREEMINENCE, NOT ORDER. This word can be used both ways, so context must determine its meaning. Some people presume it can only mean first in order; and therefore, that these souls shall be the first ones to be raised from the dead. This is incorrect. For earlier in Revelation, verse 1:5, we find that Jesus is called “the πρωτοτοκος/first-born of the dead.” Jesus was the first among all men to be resurrected from the dead with an immortalized body: no one else of the dead was immortalized on that same day or before. Others will also have been resurrected from the dead prior to the raising of these Revelation 20:4 saints, including those of the dead who will have been “caught up in clouds” to Jesus long before the Battle of Armageddon; as also will be the killed and quickly-resurrected
Two Witnesses. 1 Thes. 4:14-17; Rev. 11:3ff.

So the primary meaning here of πρωτη is that Jesus, along with the 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 saints, the Two Witnesses, and the Revelation 20:4 saints, are preeminent in the sense of all together being foremost in status of those who will be resurrected from the dead prior to the Millennial reign of Christ. Because in addition to these, non-believers will also be resurrected from the dead prior to the Millennium. But these will arise unto a very non-preeminent “resurrection of condemnation.” John 5:29; Dan. 12:2; Is. 66:24

Secondarily, those of the pre-Millennial, πρωτη resurrection will also, taken together as a class of people, be first in the sense of preceding everyone to be raised from the dead after the end of the Millennium. All of the immortalized and glorified pre-Millennial group will be those over whom “the second death [will have] no power.” Whereas some of the post-Millennial group will be those over whom “the second death,” “the lake of fire,” will have power. Others from the Millennium, of the ones having been born during it, will undoubtedly become saints and receive glorifies bodies.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2840-the-“first”-resurrection-of-revelation-205-6/

 

[abcdef]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well, I think it is in truth.

Firstfruits of a harvest were of the harvest. It wasn't some separate harvest, it was the first of what ever crop taken out of the bulk of the harvest that was coming. 

For instance, it could be the first bushel of wheat. There were still 1000 bushels of wheat to be harvested, but the firstfruits and all the rest of the wheat are of the same harvest, not two different ones.  

 

And those that are His at His coming, the bulk of the same spring or fall harvest. All of the same resurrection.

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

It does in an oblique way. Zechariah 14:16-21 pretty much seals the deal. He reigns on earth.

I don't know what you think but I'm convinced the Mount of Olives is on earth, east of Jerusalem

"Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, "

Jesus did stand on the Mt of Olives already.

After that Jerusalem, the mountain of God was divided. Dan 9:16, Jerusalem is the mountain of God.

The people were carried away, north and south, carried away into all nations by the Roman armies into slavery.

1/3 were carried away (north and south), 1/3 were killed (not cut off from the city), and 1/3 were scattered into the gentile nations (fled through the valley).

These things in Zech 14:1-8, happened in the 33 AD - 70 AD time period.

One thing that confirms this is the living waters, the Holy Spirit, flowing from Jerusalem to the seas of the gentile nations.

More discussion on these events is expected from you.

----

As far as Zech 14:9-21, I'm not sure as when this time period is. Some say that it shows when the captives return from Egypt after Babylon falls, which I can see that, in places. 

Some say as you do, that it is literal and is about the kingdom/mill period. Which I see as being the gospel kingdom/church period, 33 AD - the present. I can see how that can be also.

But since I believe that Jesus reigns over the gospel kingdom/church right now, I lean towards the latter for some reasons.

Zech 14:13-14, Although this passage shows a time of peace, vs 13-14 show a time of conflict.

Vs 15 & 18, Show plagues, so everything is not all peaceful world wide, as some teach about the mill period.

V 20, Shows horses with bells that are marked, but horses are not seen in Jerusalem any more, just cars and trucks. This points to a time that is past.

So honestly, I tend to see this passage, Zech 14:9-21 as past, filled with symbolism and not literal.