Four questions for YECs - (and a little history of creationism vs evolution)

[The Barbarian]

7 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

It's really very simple to me; Adam started to die by degrees the day he ate from the tree!

Which isn't a problem as far as salvation is concerned, but it's not scriptural.   God says that he would die the day he ate from the tree, not hundreds of years later.   So we know it's not a physical death, but a spiritual one.

And we know that Adam was never immortal, since God expresses concern that he might become so.  

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by The Barbarian

[Retrobyter]

4 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Which isn't a problem as far as salvation is concerned, but it's not scriptural.   God says that he would die the day he ate from the tree, not hundreds of years later.   So we know it's not a physical death, but a spiritual one.

Shalom, The Barbarian.

Just drop the word "spiritual." Nobody ever uses the word correctly! It's a fake "holy" word.

[FreeGrace]

On 3/7/2023 at 8:48 PM, HAZARD said:

Scriptures show that originally, Long before Adam and Eve were created, God created the Earth and placed Lucifer as ruler of the society there.

 

God gave Lucifer control of the Earth kingdom (Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Lucifer obeyed God and ruled for an unknown time before "Iniquity was found in him. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:13-15).

Before Adam Lucifer was the ruler of the Earth.

God is taking about Lucifer in these Scriptures. He was a perfectly created arc angel;

 

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:13-15).

Lucifer wanted to control the universe and knock God off His throne. He over a long period of time convinced one third of God's angels to rebell with him and they rebelled against God and His universal rule, and invaded heaven to try and de-throne God Himself. (Ezek 28:17; Isa. 14:12-14).

Naturally Lucifer was defeated, and his kingdom on the earth was totally destroyed by a flood and by the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1;2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6), hence the severe geological contortions of the earth's crust, vast deposits of bones in various places world wide, fossiles thousands or millions of years old etc. The earth was turned upside down in this process, ever wondered why the moon is poc marked by countless craters, and yet we never see anything plowing into it these days causing such destruction. What about the other dead planets in our immediate solar system? The flood God caused to cover the earth remained for an unknown period of time, and then God, in six days restored the earth to a habitable state and made Adam and his creation to carry out the original plan of God concerning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer and his spirit rebels caused man to fall and by this regained dominion of the earth through Adams submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). Lucifer has been in control ever since and he will remain in control untill the second coming of Jesus Christ who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium. God will then finally make a New heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).

This doctrine is so simple for most men to understand, so they reject it. Especially many churches for some reason.

2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:

But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is where people become confused and say the world "that then was," was the world before Noah's flood, but this cannot be because:

If the world that THAT THEN WAS" is that between Adam and the flood of Noah, then God created The heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW" since the flood of Noah. Noah and his family lived prior to his flood and after it. The world "THAT THEN WAS PERISHED" and everything in it also perished. What change could Noah's flood make to the heavens? None, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. The earth, vegetation, the heavens, all remained the same after Noah's flood.

Peter, in (2 Peter 3:3-7) taught that scoffers were totally ignorant of the flood that destroyed the social system and the earth "that then was" (lucifers flood). These scoffers all knew of Noah's flood and still know today. This proves that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original creation was hidden from them, while they knew about Noah's flood.

What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it was the destruction of the social system before Adam?

This is the doctrin of which men are still ignorant of, which they call "the gap theory." Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant of this truth showing that it is a clear doctrin of Scripture if men would stop being ignorant of it. There are many Scriptures that make this doctrin clear; so "If any man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant," as Paul expressed in (1 Cor. 14:38).

Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. In Isa. 14:12-14 we have statements which cannot possibly of an earthly King. The passage is universally refering to the fall of Satan. We can quote it and note the facts.

"How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which dist weaken the nations! For thou art hast said in thine heart, I WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN, I WILL EXALT MY THRONE above the stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I WILL ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE like the most High," Now note the following facts this passage proves of Satan:

1. That his name is Lucifer.

2. That he was a son of the morning, and therefore, no earthly man.

3. That he fell from Heaven. This could never be spoken of a man. Satan is the only person in all Scripture who is spoken of as falling from Heaven (Luke 10:18).

4. That he was cut down to the ground in his fall.

5. That he weakened the nations on Earth.

6. That he was exalted in his heart.

7. That he invaded hHeaven where God rules.

8. That he was a KING, for he had a Throne and SUBJECTS over whom he ruled.

9. That he wanted to exalt his kingdom above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven itself to dethrone God.

10. That he wanted to be worshiped in the congregation of God (Ps. 72:2; 82:1; Isa. 6:1).

11. That he led a rebellion against God but was defeated.

12. That his kingdom was on Earth, or he never could have tried to ascend above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven. When a kingdom is located under the clouds it has to be on the Earth.

13. That the ground, clouds, stars, and Heaven were already created.

14. That it had to be before Adam, for this was not the position of Lucifer when he was in Adam's Eden. Adam had dominion at that time. Lucifer had no kingdom on the Earth at the time of Adam and he has not had one since in the sense of a visible personal rule on Earth. He has only ruled through others since Adam's day; so this must refer to a time before Adam.

15. That he was not in Heaven when he rebelled, else he could not have desired to ascend into Heaven. He was under the stars, or he could not have desired to be exalted above the stars. He was under the clouds, or he could not have desired to ascend above them.

16. That God's throne is located in the north part of the universe (Psalms 75:6-7). Thus, this passage proves the location of Satan's original kingdom and the time of his fall. It was located on Earth, and his fall was before Adam, for he was all ready a fallen creature when he entered Adam' Eden.

In Coll. 1:15-18 we read of Christ creating thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers in Heaven and on Earth. They were located somewhere in the heavens and on the Earth. Lucifer was given a kingdom here on Earth, as proved by the passages cited above. His own subjects were earthly creatures of various kinds which were destroyed when the flood of Gen. 1:2 came upon the Earth. God created the Earth to be inhabited by earthly creatures (Isa. 45:18). They are called "nations" in the above passages. The demons who are now Satans emissaries could well be the spirits of the pre-Adamites. At any rate they are not part of the creation at the time of Adam. Thus Isaiah teaches the the Earth was inhabited before Adam and was ruled by Lucifer, whos' kingdom was overthrown when he rebelled.

There is so, so much more found in Scripture regarding this doctrin, many dozens of Scriptures support this. If this is false teaching, it amuses me that no one comes up with nothing more than Noah's flood, which occured much later, did not compleatly destroy the Earth, shake mountains, turn them upside down, turned off the stars and the sun so that there was no light. God had already created the Heavens, they were in existence as well as the Earth only their lights were withheld from shining on the Earth thus causing darkness Gen. 1:2. There was no darkness during Noah's flood? There were men and animals on the earth before Noah's flood, and Noah and his family and the animals survived the flood and were on the Eart after it?

That the Earth ONLY was (became) without form and void (Hebrew tohu vabobu, litterally wast and ruin or desolate and empty), as in Gen. 1:2. That there were mountains of Earth that were shaken and turned upside down by an earthquake so severe, which no doubt caused the remains of animals to be deposited in the very depths of the Earth beneath many layers of solid rock, such as are now been found. Noah's flood never buried animals hundreds of meters beneath solid rock.

Many other scriptures apart from those above can be presented to prove the doctrin of a pre-Adamite world.

To try and put this in a nutshell, God created the heavens first, then the Earth, all in the beginning or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). He caused the heavens and the Earth to be inhabited and gave Lucifer control of the Earth-kingdom, those that find this hard to believe, read, (Coll. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Lucifer ruled the earth for God for an unknown period before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and dethrone God. Not my idea, read (Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). He was defeated and his kingdom on Earth was destroyed by a flood and the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).

The Earth was turned upside down, a process which caused all the present formations of the Earth. The flood remained on the Earth for an unknown period of time, and then God in six days restored the Earth to a habitable state and made Adam and Eve and his creation to carry out the original plan of God concerning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer, now called Satan, and the spirit rebels caused man to fall, and they regained dominion of the earth through Adam's submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). They have been in control ever since and will be in control untill the second coming of Christ, who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium and make a New Heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth all righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5). Why does science show the earth to be many millions of years old and the Bible "(allegedly)" says it is only six thousand years old? So, as with everything missunderstood in Scripture men call what they do not understand a theory. Hence, the gap theory, or even a herecy. But there was a gap and its no theory. Scripture shows there was a creation "in the beginning" and then a re-creation.

If we take the time to carefully read all the Scriptures regarding this doctrin and not just skim over them retaining old knowledge in the mind, and the READ these below, which backs up what is said, and see for yourselves

You see, God spoke, and as soon as the materials were made, God created and formed with His hands the heavens, with all its light and darkness first, then the Earth, all in the beginning, or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). God created the heavens and the earth to be inhabited and He gave Lucifer control of the Earth kingdom (Col. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). Lucifer obeyed God and ruled for an unknown time before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and de-throne (Ezek 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Naturally Lucifer was defeated, and his kingdom on the earth was totally destroyed by a flood and by the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1;2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6), hence the severe geological contortions of the earth's crust, vast deposits of bones in various places world wide, fossiles thousands or millions of years old etc. The earth was turned upside down in this process, ever wondered why the moon is poc marked by countless craters, and yet we never see anything plowing into it these days causing such destruction. What about the other dead planets in our immediate solar system? The flood God caused to cover the earth remained for an unknown period of time, and then God, in six days restored the earth to a habitable state and made Adam and his creation to carry out the original plan of God conserning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer and his spirit rebels caused man to fall and by this regained dominion of the earth through Adams submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). Lucifer has been in control ever since and he will remain in control untill the second coming of Jesus Christ who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium. God will then finally make a New heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).

This doctrin is too simple for most men to understand, so they reject it.

Now, 2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:
But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is where people become confused and say the world "that then was," was the world before Noah's flood, but this cannot be because:

If the world that THAT THEN WAS" is that between Adam and the flood of Noah, then God created The heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW" since the flood of Noah. Noah and his family lived prior to his flood and after it. The world "THAT THEN WAS PERISHED" and everything in it also perished. What change could Noah's flood make to the heavens? None, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. The earth, vegetation, the heavens, all remained the same after Noah's flood.

Peter, in (2 Peter 3:3-7) taught that scoffers were totally ignorant of the flood that destroyed the social system and the earth "that then was" (lucifers flood). These scoffers all knew of Noah's flood and still know today. This proves that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original creation was hidden from them, while they knew about Noah's flood.

What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it was the destruction of the social system before Adam?

This is the doctrin of which men are still ignorant of, which they call "the gap theory." Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant of this truth showing that it is a clear doctrin of Scripture if men would stop being ignorant of it. There are many Scriptures that make this doctrin clear; so "If any man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant," as Paul expressed in (1 Cor. 14:38).

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Just as God told Adam and Eve to do when He restored the Earth to a habitable state and He created them, Genesis 1:28, “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth”

 

___________________________________________________________________________ 

 

Ezekiel 28:11-18).

The  earthly king of Tyre was Ithobalus 11, The supernatural king of Tyre was Lucifer, who is mostly referred to in this prophecy (V. 11-19), as proved by the many statements that could not possibly apply to any earthly man.

No earthly king of Tyre was ever in Eden, as was does this angel, nor does this Eden refer to Adam's Eden although Lucifer was in it also (Gen. 3; 2 Cor. 11:3). The Eden here was a garden in the earth when he ruled in perfection and sinlessness before he fell (V. 13).

Ezek. 28:14-16, Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

V. 15, Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
V. 16, By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

No angel was in any holy mountain of God when an earthly king of Tyre ruled, so the reference is to the eternal past when the cherub himself had a literal throne on earth on the holy mountain of God.

Here we have an insight into the position of Lucifer before his fall, and a revelation regarding the cause of his fall (V. 13-17). The term mountain of God occurs seven times (V. 14, 16; Ex. 3:1; 4:27; 18:5; 24:13; 1 Kings 19:8). The mountain of the Lord occurs six times(Gen. 22:14; Num. 10:33; Isa. 2:3; 30:29: Mic. 4:2; Zech. 8:3). All these Scriptures do not refer to the same mountain in the same place, as can be seen from the various passages.

 

The time of his iniquity was when he rebelled against God to exalt his throne and kingdom from earth to heaven (Isa. 14:12-14). The time of his corruption and sin was surely before the days of Adam for Lucifer was already a fallen creature at the time he came into Adams Eden (Gen. 2; 2 Cor. 11:3).

Heb. rekullah, traffic. It refers to Lucifers walking up and down slandering God to his own subjects on earth, and to God's subjects among the angels, until he had all his earthly subjects rebelling against the creator, as well as over one-third of the angels (Isa. 14:12-14; 2 Pet. 3:4-6; Rev. 12:4). Whatever it was, it is clear here that the behaviour resulted in violence; and Lucifer sinned and broke with God. This could never refer to an earthly king, as the ruler of Tyre, carrying on ordinary trade with the nations. It definitely concerns the traffic of a cherub, not a man. All trade between nations in the entire world could not cause an angel to sin as here in V.16.

Lucifer has already been humbled before kings for he was cast down to the ground before all the nations over whom he ruled previous to the time of Adam (Isa.14:12-14). He will again be brought down in the deepest humiliation before the kings of the earth whom he will lead with Antichrist in the battle of Armageddon (Rev. 12:7-12; 16:13-16; 19:11-21; 30:1-3). Then again at the end of the Millennium he will be brought down to Hell before all the kings and others who will spend eternity with him in the lake of FIRE (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 20:10).

Refreshing to read the truth.  It is amazing how few believers/churches will embrace any of this.  They are stuck on a very poor translation of Gen 1:2.  

[The Barbarian]

19 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, The Barbarian.

Just drop the word "spiritual." Nobody ever uses the word correctly! It's a fake "holy" word.

No.   Scripture often refers to the spirit in humans.  

James 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

[FreeGrace]

On 3/10/2023 at 12:08 PM, The Barbarian said:

Yes.  God told Adam that he would die the day he ate from the tree.   He ate, but he lived on physically for many years thereafter.   This is how we know it was a spiritual, not a physical death.    Adam was never physically immortal, as God notes at the end of Genesis 3, making sure that he would not become so.

To clarify, in the original Hebrew, God said, "in the day that you eat of it, dying, you shall die".  There are 2 deaths in Gen 2:17.  "Dying" refers to the generally slow process of physical death, or what we think of as old age.  "Die" was immediate, or "on THAT day" when they ate the fruit.  Their human spirit (one part of their tripartite condition) did DIE, which we call spiritual death.  Their human spirit died and rendered man incapable of fixing the problem, but which God solved by the spiritual death of His own Son on a cross.  Man appropriates salvation through faith in His work on the cross.

[FreeGrace]

30 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, The Barbarian.

Just drop the word "spiritual." Nobody ever uses the word correctly! It's a fake "holy" word.

Was Paul speaking "fake" words here?

1 Cor 15:44 - It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

[Retrobyter]

6 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Which isn't a problem as far as salvation is concerned, but it's not scriptural.   God says that he would die the day he ate from the tree, not hundreds of years later.   So we know it's not a physical death, but a spiritual one.

And we know that Adam was never immortal, since God expresses concern that he might become so.  

Shalom, The Barbarian.

No, actually Adam WAS immortal in the sense that he (as a body) had not started to die, yet. The horror that God expressed was this:

Genesis 3:22-24 (KJV)

22 And the LORD God said,

"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever ....":

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

You can almost sense the shudder! He left His sentence unfinished! It was too awful to think about! To "know good and evil" is ironic: God is good, and man is now evil! Before, one couldn't tell the difference, because man was good, too! And, now, being evil, he was in the process of dying. If he had reached out his hand and took also fruit of the Tree of Life, and ate it, he would be FOREVER ALIVE AS A SINNER! He would be as doomed as haSatan is!

God could not allow the man to suffer that fate; so, He banished him from the garden (where the Tree of Life was), and barricaded the way!

It wasn't just that he would eat of the Tree of Life and live forever; it was that he would do so IN SIN and IN ITS CONSEQUENCES!

 

[The Barbarian]

9 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

To clarify, in the original Hebrew, God said, "in the day that you eat of it, dying, you shall die".

Yes, God said that in the day he ate from the tree "you shall die."   Not hundreds of years later.   So we know it was a spiritual death, not a physical one.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Was Paul speaking "fake" words here?

1 Cor 15:44 - It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1. First, I wasn't talking to you, although I can understand your desire to jump in on the conversation when someone attacks what some consider a "sacred" word, like "spiritual."

2. Second, of course Paul wasn't speaking "fake" words in 1 Corinthians 15:44, because he knew how to use the words CORRECTLY! Most who use the words today, don't have a CLUE what they mean!

(I had a whole post going to answer you, and I lost it all with one push of the wrong button, but I'm going to reconstruct what I had for you.)

1 Corinthians 15:44 is a great verse to investigate what I'm talking about. Here's the Greek of this verse:

Pros Korinthious A 15:44 (Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894)

44 σπείρεται σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἐγείρεται σῶμα πνευματικόν. ἔστι σῶμα ψυχικόν, καὶ ἔστι σῶμα πνευματικόν.

Transliterated, this is ...

44 Speiretai sooma psuchikon, egeiretai sooma pneumatikon. Esti sooma psuchikon, kai esti sooma pneumatikon.

Translated word-for-word, this becomes ...

44 It-is-sown a-body breathing, it-is-raised a-body blasting (like the wind). There-is a-body breathing and there-is a-body blasting.

Despite the good intentions of the translators of English translations, to use the words "natural" and "spiritual" HIDES the truth of what is being compared in the lies of Mediaeval theology! This is NOT comparing the "natural" to the "spiritual," or the "physical" to the "spiritual," or any such dualism one would expect to find in Platoism!

The words in the above verse that are suspect are "psuchikon" and "pneumatikon."

"Psuchikon" is the neuter gender of "psuchikos":

4491 psuchikos ψυχικός, ή, όν (psoo-khee-kos'). From psuchee; sensitive, i.e. Animate (in distinction on the one hand from pneumatikos, which is the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from phusikos, which is the lower or bestial nature):
-- natural, sensual.

"Pneumatikon" is the neuter gender of "pneumatikos":

4152 pneumatikos πνευματικός, ή, όν (pnyoo-mat-ik-os'). From pneuma; non-carnal, i.e. (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious:
-- spiritual. Compare psuchikos.

Despite the good intentions of the translators and the writers of these definitions, they really don't understand these words, and they are phishing for answers to their own questions about these words. Etymology is the key, and we need to follow the links in these entries:

"Psuchikos" is an adjective that comes from the Greek noun "psuchee":

5590 psuchee (psuche) ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ (psoo-khay'). From psuchoo; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zooee, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms (psuchee, pneuma, and zooee) thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew nephesh, ruwach and chay):
-- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

4151 pneuma πνεῦμα, ατος, τό (pnyoo'-mah). From pneoo; a current of air, i.e. Breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:
-- ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare psuchee.

2222 zooee (zoe)  ζωή, ῆς, ἡ (dzo-ay'). From zaoo; life (literally or figuratively) -- life(-time). Compare psuchee.

Note that each of these nouns come from a verb:

5594 psuchoo (psucho) ψύχω (psoo'-kho). A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from pneoo, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of aeer, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication, of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively):
-- wax cold.

4154 pneoo (pneo) πνέω (pneh'-o). A primary word; to breathe hard, i.e. Breeze:
-- blow. Compare psuchoo.

2198 zaoo (zao)  ζάω (dzah'-o). A primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively):
-- life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.

These all correspond to the Hebrew equivalents:

5315 nefesh (nephesh) נֶפֶשׁ (neh'-fesh). From naafash (naphash); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

7307 ruwach רוּחַ (roo'-akh). From ruwach; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
-- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

2416 chay חַי (khah'-ee). From chayah; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:
-- + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

Note that these three nouns also stem from verb roots:

5314 naafash (naphash) נָפַשׁ (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

7306 ruwach רוּחַ (roo-akh'). A primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. Breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy):
-- accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

2421 chaayaah (chayah) חָיָה (khaw-yaw'). A primitive root (compare chavah, chayah); to live, whether literally or figuratively; causatively, to revive:
-- keep (live, make) alive, X certainly, give (promise) life, (let, suffer to) live, nourish up, preserve (alive), quicken, recover, repair, restore (to life), revive, (X God) save (alive, life, lives), X surely, be whole.

Now, I bring all this up because, fortunately for us, Paul QUOTED the Hebrew Old Testament and his words were written in New Testament Greek!

1 Corinthians 15:45 (KJV)

45 And so it is written,

"The first man Adam was made a living soul";

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Here's the Greek of this verse:

Pros Korinthious A 15:45 (Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894)

45 οὕτω καὶ γέγραπται,

"Ἐγένετο ὁ πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος Ἀδὰμ εἰς ψυχὴν ζωσαν."

ὁ ἔσχατος Ἀδὰμ εἰς πνεῦμα ζωοποιοῦν.

This is transliterated as ...

45 Outoo kai gegraptai,

"Egeneto ho prootos anthroopos Adam eis psucheen zoosan."

ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun.

Translated word-for-word, we get ...

45 So also it-is-written,

"Became the first man Adam into an-air-breathing-creature living."

the last Adam into a-wind life-giving.

Paul, of course, is quoting Genesis 2:7:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here's the Hebrew of this verse:

B'reeshiyt 2:7 (Westminster Leningrad Codex)

וַיִּיצֶר֩ יְהוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַֽיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה׃

This is transliterated as ...

7 Vayyiytser YHWH 'Elohiym 'et-haa'aadaam `aafaar min-haa'adaamaah vayyipah b'apaayow nishmat chayyiym vayhiy haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayyaah:

And, this is translated word-for-word as ...

7 And-made YHWH God (d.o.->)-the-red-[man] of-dust from-the-red-[ground] and-puffed into-his-nostrils a-puff of-living-creatures and-became the-red-[man] into-a-breathing-creature living:

So, both Paul in the First Century and the translator and compiler of the Greek Dictionary in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance both admit that the phrase in Hebrew, "וַֽיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה" is translated correctly into the Greek phrase "Ἐγένετο ὁ (πρῶτος) ἄνθρωπος (Ἀδὰμ) εἰς ψυχὴν ζωσαν."

Thus,

Hebrew = Greek = English

Vayhiy = (Kai) Egeneto = And became
ha- = ho = the
'aadaam = anthroopos = man
l- = eis = into
nefesh = psucheen = an-air-breathing-creature
chayaah = zoosan = living.

This tells me that there is more to "psuchee" than just "breath!" It is, like its Hebrew counterpart, "nefesh," a "breathing-creature!" And, this is especially true if "psuchee" and "nefesh" "exactly correspond respectively!"

SO,

when we read,

1 Cor 15:44 - It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Paul was saying that it is sown an air-breathing body; [and] iit is raised AN AIR-BLASTING body! And, THAT is the correct understanding of the word "spiritual" ("pneumatikon"), especially in contrast to the word "psuchikon" (erroneously translated "natural").

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

To clarify, in the original Hebrew, God said, "in the day that you eat of it, dying, you shall die".  There are 2 deaths in Gen 2:17.  "Dying" refers to the generally slow process of physical death, or what we think of as old age.  "Die" was immediate, or "on THAT day" when they ate the fruit.  Their human spirit (one part of their tripartite condition) did DIE, which we call spiritual death.  Their human spirit died and rendered man incapable of fixing the problem, but which God solved by the spiritual death of His own Son on a cross.  Man appropriates salvation through faith in His work on the cross.

 

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Yes, God said that in the day he ate from the tree "you shall die."   Not hundreds of years later.   So we know it was a spiritual death, not a physical one.

Shalom, FreeGrace, and consequentially, The Barbarian.

Sorry, but that is a POOR translation of Genesis 2:17. It's wrong to say "dying, you shall die." That's NOT what God said!

The Hebrew is - once again,

B'reeshiyt 2:17 (Westminster Leningrad Codex)

וּמֵעֵ֗ץ הַדַּ֙עַת֙ טֹ֣וב וָרָ֔ע לֹ֥א תֹאכַ֖ל מִמֶּ֑נּוּ כִּ֗י בְּיֹ֛ום אֲכָלְךָ֥ מִמֶּ֖נּוּ מֹ֥ות תָּמֽוּת׃

This transliterates to ...

17 Uwmee`eets hadda`at TowV vaaraa` lo' to'khal mimmennuw kiy byowm 'akhaalkhaa mimmennuw mowt taamowt:

This translates word-for-word to ...

17 And-from-the-tree of-the-knowledge of-good and-evil not you-shall-eat from-it for in-[the]-day that-you-eat (Qal-infinitive construct) from-it surely (the word is repeated for emphasis, Qal Infinitive absolute) you-shall-die (Qal imperfect in the 2nd-person, masculine, singular form).

Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar says on p. 342 (Section 113, n),

"n (a) The infinitive absolute used before the verb to strengthen the verbal idea, i.e. to emphasize in this way either the certainty (especially in the case of threats) or the forcibleness and completeness of an occurrence. In English, such an infinitive is mostly expressed by a corresponding adverb, but sometimes merely by putting greater stress on the verb; e.g. Gn 2:17 מֹ֥ות תָּמֽוּת thou shalt surely die, ..."

BE VERY CAREFUL of putting words in GOD'S mouth!