Four questions for YECs - (and a little history of creationism vs evolution)

[BeyondET]

7 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, The Barbarian.

Of course, this is a load of nonsense. It's NOT a "misunderstanding of the etymological roots of the word," for one can SEE the etymology in the very definition you quote!

It doesn't mean "change"; it means "to unfold, open out, expand," just as the etymology suggests!

Change is not always for the better. Democratic leftists sometimes forget this basic truth. If one is on top of a mountain, on its very peak, there's no way to go to get any higher! If one moves east, west, north, or south, one goes LOWER than his or her original position! The reason for basing one's beliefs on the authority of the Bible is to make sure that one is changing FOR THE BETTER, not for the worse! Change is not always a good thing! In fact, it can be a detriment to society, as we are seeing in these last 50 years or so!

"To vary" is "to change!" And, one can vary from the original DNA without changing the species or genus of a creature!

I don't think much of Darwin's view of the Bible or of God. Nick Spencer in his recent book Darwin and God (2009), wrote in the Introduction, 

'“In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God.” So wrote Charles Darwin to John Fordyce on 7 May 1879.

'He died three years later, without changing his mind. “You have expressed my inward conviction,” he wrote to the author William Graham in one of his last letters, “that the Universe is not the result of chance."

'No atheist, Darwin deliberately avoided bashing religion. “I hardly see how religion & science can be kept…distinct,” he wrote to his friend, Brodie Innes, the vicar of Downe, “but…there is no reason why the disciples of either school should attack each other with bitterness.”

'How is it, then, that this gentle, respectful, humane agnostic has become the patron saint of modern, aggressive atheism?

'Perhaps, the modern, aggressive atheists reply, it is because Darwin also wrote to another correspondent in 1879, “Science has nothing to do with Christ.” Perhaps it is because he said the following year, “I do not believe in the Bible as a divine revelation, & therefore not in Jesus Christ as the son of God.” Perhaps it is because he said in his autobiography that, given that “the plain language of the text seems to [point towards]…everlasting punishment…I can…hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true.”'

Thus, by his own confession, he had the spirit of antichrist, according to John's epistles! And again, the assumption is to label it "DESCENT with modification!" Thus, it was a BIAS from which he operated and wrote.

NO, thank you! Your bias colors your view! As such, you cannot see that the analysis of DNA actually confirms DIFFERENCE, and speaks NOTHING about "common descent!"

MOST unfortunate! While it is true that DNA is the material that comprises genes and chromosomes, and that it can show heredity on a close scale, that is parenthood within human beings, the ASSUMPTION that it can show heredity between species and fossil data is a LEADING argument! By ignoring and even denying that God would use the same building blocks of genes found in the patterns of DNA to create other species or genera - biblical "kinds," allows "science" (falsely so-called) to CONTRADICT the Scriptures!

I "cut my teeth" on Basic, Fortran, Pascal, and TRS-80 machine language. I've also studied RPG, Lisp, C, C++, and C#. My work for 4.5 years was done in COBOL. I've worked under the MS-DOS, AppleDOS, Linux, Unix, RSTS-E, and VMS operating systems, and performed some of my programming in text files. So, yep; we're both really old! My best work was to code a "skin" for spreadsheet programs to generate Lisp programs. (Lisp was jokingly said to be an acronym for "Lost in stupid parentheses!" But, spreadsheet programs, like Excel, are GREAT for handling parentheses and embedded functions! All I had to do was add functions that would be the commands for Lisp under the "formulas" tab.)

This is interesting. You decided to go deep with a masters program, while I went wide with a couple of bachelor's degrees and AA's and AS's and several certificate programs. It gave me a wider variety.

What I find even more interesting is your work on natural selection in predators and prey! You DO realize, though, that before the Flood, all animals were herbivorous, right?

Genesis 1:24-31 (KJV)

24 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind":

and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said,

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them,

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

29 And God said,

"Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have givenevery green herb for meat":

and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Then, after the Flood, we read,

Genesis 9:1-7 (KJV)

1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them,

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. 5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. 7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein."

So, from the Creation week until after the Flood, over 1700 years, there were no carnivores or omnivores. There were only herbivores.

EXCEPT that you don't HAVE any "organisms of KNOWN descent!"

Which means nothing without the genetic code! They are just chemicals: Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, and Thymine (or Uracil).

Well, you're right about one thing. There IS a single rule which WE are to follow!

Deuteronomy 5:8-10 (KJV)

8 "Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, 10And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments."

Romans 1:18-25 (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

I don't doubt it. With creatures like T-Rex on the ark (in its much smaller, young-adult state) BECOMING carnivores after the Flood, many of them were hunted to extinction by men like Nimrod, "a mighty hunter before the LORD." This massive extinction was the basis for much of the legends and folklore of dragons and monsters, hunted by heroes and knights.

I don't know much about Kurt Wise, but if he gives Darwin credit for his predictions, then I don't think he was that "wise."

I'm sorry, but since when is Australopithicus sebida or a chimanzee the "image of God?" Again, this is all based on ASSUMPTIONS and BIAS! When you start with that assumed premise in your expectations, what would you think one would find?

This is a good verse below that describes who the green herbs was eaten by man not animals

3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things

[Retrobyter]

36 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

Do animals who don't breath air have the breath of life. And what is the life of muscle stem cells that live up to 17 days after the breath of the human is gone?. One reason why organs can be transplanted is because they still have life in them. Man came from dirt which is made from alot of living things.

Shalom, BeyondET.

No, they don't have the breath of life anymore. "The life of the flesh is in the blood."

IF the blood is still oxygenated, then the blood and the organs supplied by that blood are viable.

Babies before they are born are NOT "air-breathing creatures"; therefore, they are technically NOT "souls." But, that should not mean anything legally because God still "knows their members before they are formed!" And, He knows them even before the moment of conception!

Psalm 139:1-16 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.}

O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest (microscopic) parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

A study of the Hebrew of these verses is very revealing! I encourage all to look them up!

Oh, yes. I should also mention that the dirt from which Adam was formed, probably didn't have a lot of living things in it. Although, God probably created the bacteria and the symbiotic organisms the Man would need with the Man.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Retrobyter
to add a thought

[BeyondET]

6 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, BeyondET.

No, they don't have the breath of life anymore. "The life of the flesh is in the blood."

IF the blood is still oxygenated, then the blood and the organs supplied by that blood are viable.

Babies before they are born are NOT "air-breathing creatures"; therefore, they are technically NOT "souls." But, that should not mean anything legally because God still "knows their members before they are formed!" And, He knows them even before the moment of conception!

Psalm 139:1-16 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.}

O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest (microscopic) parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

A study of the Hebrew of these verses is very revealing! I encourage all to look them up!

Stem cells don't need oxygen. When the heart stops beating the blood stops flowing. Babies have souls in the womb.

Edited March 19, 2023 by BeyondET

[Retrobyter]

2 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

Stem cells don't breath oxygen. When the heart stops beating the blood stops flowing.

Sure, but we also refrigerate the organs for transplant. This slows down both the needs for oxygen by the organs and the decay of those organs.

[BeyondET]

5 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Sure, but we also refrigerate the organs for transplant. This slows down both the needs for oxygen by the organs and the decay of those organs.

Muscles stem cells can live for up to 17 days without refrigeration. The refrigeration is to preserve the living cells in organs for as long as possible 

Edited March 19, 2023 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

Another interesting thing after a person dies their immune system kicks into overdrive trying to repair decaying organs but of coarse its futile but nonetheless it trys.

Edited March 19, 2023 by BeyondET

[Retrobyter]

14 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

This is a good verse below that describes who the green herbs was eaten by man not animals

3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things

Shalom, BeyondET.

Yes. And, this verse is in Genesis 9, after the Flood.

However, we are told what the animals and man ate before the Flood in Genesis 2:

2 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

Muscles stem cells live for up to 17 days without refrigeration. The refrigeration is to preserve the living cells in organs for as long as possible 

All I know is that cells need oxygen to survive. Perhaps, some of the oxygen is stored in the chemicals of the mitochondria, but somehow, they are getting oxygen OR they are showing that they don't need oxygen all the time.

[BeyondET]

4 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, BeyondET.

Yes. And, this verse is in Genesis 9, after the Flood.

However, we are told what the animals and man ate before the Flood in Genesis 2:

All I know is that cells need oxygen to survive. Perhaps, some of the oxygen is stored in the chemicals of the mitochondria, but somehow, they are getting oxygen OR they are showing that they don't need oxygen all the time.

Oxygen is stored in the body why those muscle stem cells can live up to 17 days still supplied with sugars.

Edited March 19, 2023 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

9 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, BeyondET.

Yes. And, this verse is in Genesis 9, after the Flood.

However, we are told what the animals and man ate before the Flood in Genesis 2:

 

The female mosquito requires blood to produce eggs, it's own kind.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

5 hours ago, BeyondET said:

How does very good equal perfection. No where is scripture says Adam and Eve would live forever. They were not to eat from both the knowledge and tree of life thus would have lived forever in the flesh.

So your saying that sin and death existed BEFORE Adam, even though scripture says it didn't? Can you show how God's creation WASN'T perfect, or how Adam WOULDN'T have lived forever when death DIDN'T exist yet?