Four questions for YECs - (and a little history of creationism vs evolution)

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

There was NO death before Adam sinned, spiritual or physical.

I know you want to believe that, but scripture does not say that.  

[FreeGrace]

15 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Since it's not known it's best to stick with what is known of mosquitos.

Actually the male of the species only eats nectar. if you get picked by one it's a female, uses the bloodmeal for developing eggs though eats nectar as well.

The female species is highly tuned to sensing blood type. They know what type of blood you have before even jabbing a person and their preference is type O.

Interesting, but my adopted Asian daughter my son and my wife all have Type A, and mosquitos prefer my daughter to anyone else, and I've heard this is common among Asians.

I have type O and am not bothered by mosquitos any more than my wife and son are.

[NConly]

On 3/19/2023 at 8:49 AM, The Barbarian said:

As you see, it does mean change.  But the etymology of it is why Darwin preferred "descent with modification" which describes biological evolution rather well, if one doesn't know about genetics.

Which is O.K.  His only comment about God with regard to evolution is his supposition that God just created the first living things.

Right. That's true in biological evolution, too.  Most of it is a dead end; the vast majority of species are now extinct.  A few winners, but mostly losers.

Actually, his observations of living populations.  That's what happens.

Computer science, biology, history, chemistry.   I was kind of an academic bum.   Partially after getting drafted.   I took as many college courses as I could on whatever base it was.   I have nearly enough history to get a degree in it.

I know some creationists want to believe that, but of course God never said that.

BTW, we have now found all the bases for DNA and RNA in meteorites where they formed abiotically.  

They comprise the genetic code.  All the stuff for life was already there, because of the way God made things.   And then the earth brought forth life from those things He created through nature.    As He intended.

Fortunately, genetics gives us a way to test that belief.   Turns out, DNA analyses confirm common descent.   The phylogenies based on DNA turn out to be almost identical to those base on phenotypes.   And where it doesn't we find analogy rather than homology, which indicates convergence.   Would you like to see how we know?

Your bias colors your view.   As you know, we can identify common descent by looking at DNA.  This is how, for example, we know about the black descendants of Thomas Jefferson.   This is how we know that polar bears evolved from brown bears in the last ice age.   This is how we know how different varieties of domesticated animals were produced.   All of these are examples of known descent and DNA confirms it.

Dr. Wise merely points out the facts.   Darwin's numerous predictions of transitional forms have been repeatedly confirmed in fossil evidence.   Kurt Wise is a YE creationist, but he's honest enough to admit the fact.    As he remarks about the fossil record of whales, there is no creationist explanation for them.   Still, he thinks that there could be in the future.

We don't know when God gave man a living soul and made him in His image.   You do realize that God is a spirit, so God doesn't have an adductor pollicis.   But if Adam happened to be of H. erectus before H. sapiens evolved, why would that be offensive to you?    H. erectus was almost identical to modern humans apart from some skull differences.    What difference would it make to God?   We don't know which humans were first given the gift of being in His image.   And it doesn't matter.

Evidence.    It's all based on the evidence.    There are many informed YE creationists who accept that the evidence shows one thing, while their understanding of scripture tells them something else.  

It doesn't matter to their salvation.   It won't matter to yours either.   Only those who make an idol of their YE beliefs are in danger of separating themselves from God.

 

This seems to say there were no meat eaters

Gen 1:30

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

 

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Interesting, but my adopted Asian daughter my son and my wife all have Type A, and mosquitos prefer my daughter to anyone else, and I've heard this is common among Asians.

I have type O and am not bothered by mosquitos any more than my wife and son are.

There was a few studies on it. A older one and a recent study. the female mosquito is picky so she may not always choose type O for whatever reason But generally the females prefer O.

https://www.healthline.com/health/mosquito-blood-type

Edited March 20, 2023 by BeyondET

[The Barbarian]

On 3/6/2023 at 2:26 PM, FJK said:

If it was a specially cordoned off part of the earth, were conditions outside of it and within it the same with all of the same content of flora and fauna and the same governing rules?

That's one possibility.    Or it could have been an allegory.    Given the text, I'm inclined to think it is figurative.   But scripture doesn't rule out that it could be a specific place set aside from the rest of the Earth.

 

[Retrobyter]

On 3/19/2023 at 4:53 PM, The Barbarian said:

(Regarding female mosquitos needing blood to reproduce)

If you need to insert unscriptural assumptions to make it work, isn't that a pretty good clue that something is wrong.

And whatever beasts were in the garden, that has no bearing on what was outside the garden.

Shalom, anyway, The Barbarian.

Wrong. The Man wasn't IN the Garden when God created him! 

First, understand that Hebrew literature always prefaces an account with a summation of what is to follow. Then, the text will go into the details of that account.

That can be seen in Genesis 1:1 and then Genesis 1:8 and 1:10:

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven (הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם hashaamayim) and the earth (הָאָֽרֶץ haa'aarets).

Genesis 1:6-8 (KJV)

6 And God said,

"Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament "Heaven (Hebrew: שָׁמָ֑יִם shaamaayim)." And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Genesis 1:9-13 (KJV)

9 And God said,

"Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear":

and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land "Earth (Hebrew: אֶ֔רֶץ 'erets)"; and the gathering together of the waters called he "Seas": and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth":

and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Therefore, 1:1 is a SUMMATION of what is to follow.

 

Genesis 1:24-31 (KJV)

24 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind":

and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said,

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

27 So GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE, IN THE IMAGE OF GOD CREATED HE HIM (A); MALE AND FEMALE CREATED HE THEM (B). 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them,

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." 

29 And God said,

"Behold, I have given you EVERY HERB BEARING SEED, WHICH IS UPON THE FACE OF ALL THE EARTH, AND EVERY TREE, IN THE WHICH IS THE FRUIT OF A TREE YIELDING SEED; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to EVERY BEAST OF THE EARTH, AND TO EVERY FOWL OF THE AIR, AND TO EVERY THING THAT CREEPETH UPON THE EARTH, wherein there is life, I have given EVERY GREEN HERB FOR MEAT":

and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

And, then we read in chapter 2 the details of the sixth day:

Genesis 2:4-25 (KJV)

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 AND THE LORD GOD FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND, AND BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE; AND MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL (A).

8 And THE LORD GOD PLANTED A GARDEN EASTWARD IN EDEN; AND THERE HE PUT THE MAN WHOM HE HAD FORMED. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

18 And the LORD God said, 

"It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21 AND THE LORD GOD CAUSED A DEEP SLEEP TO FALL UPON ADAM, AND HE SLEPT: AND HE TOOK ONE OF HIS RIBS, AND CLOSED UP THE FLESH INSTEAD THEREOF; 22 AND THE RIB, WHICH THE LORD GOD HAD TAKEN FROM MAN, MADE HE A WOMAN, AND BROUGHT HER UNTO THE MAN. (B)

23 And Adam said,

"This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Notice that (A) and (B) are listed together in Genesis 1:27, but they are listed several verses apart in Genesis 2:7 and 2:22. The animals were NOT created between these two events, but they were BROUGHT to the man for him to name between the two events.

On 3/19/2023 at 4:53 PM, The Barbarian said:

There would be no way for spiders to live without prey.   Nor would cats survive without meat.   

Taurine is an amino acid (the building blocks of protein) essential for cats. Taurine can only be found in animal sources such as meat, milk, etc. It is not found in plant sources. Taurine can be synthesized in humans and dogs, but cats are unable to do this and require a direct source from an animal product. Cats who are fed a vegan diet will often develop a deficiency of taurine because the diet doesn't provide them with this essential amino acid. 

Cats with taurine deficiency can develop a heart issue known as dilated cardiomyopathy or DCM. In cats with DCM, the heart muscle becomes very thin and weak, preventing them from pumping blood and supplying oxygen to the body normally. This is a fatal disease if not corrected early on. A lack of adequate taurine can also cause severe eye problems in cats, including blindness.

https://www.aspca.org/news/why-cant-my-cat-be-vegan

You could say "Well, God kept spiders, mosquitoes, cats, and other obligate predators out of the garden."  Or alternately, you could imagine that God just miraculously put taurine in plants back then.  But that would  be yet another unscriptural assumption.   This is one of the many reasons that most Christians realize that Genesis 1,2,and 3 are not literal histories, but figurative explanations of God's creation.

This wasn't restricted to the garden; this was true for "all the earth!" You NEED to have a BIGGER GOD! You don't know HOW animals (and man) were changed to be omnivores and carnivores! YHWH GOD knows how it was done, but we're not told! All we can do is ACCEPT what is written in God's Word!

Have you ever considered what we have to anticipate in the Millennial Kingdom and later in the New Earth?

Isaiah 11:1-9 (KJV)

1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And THE COW AND THE BEAR SHALL FEED; their young ones shall lie down together: and THE LION SHALL EAT STRAW LIKE THE OX. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' (cobra's) den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain (kingdom): for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

This isn't just some figurative or flowery speech! This is God's PROPHECY (not a "prediction" but a FORETELLING) through His prophet Yesha`yahuw ("Isaiah")! God is going to BRING BACK the original Creation without the curse!

Revelation 22:1-5 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And THERE SHALL BE NO MORE CURSE: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

There's absolutely no reason not to see this as a literal fulfillment!

[The Barbarian]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This wasn't restricted to the garden; this was true for "all the earth!" You NEED to have a BIGGER GOD! You don't know HOW animals (and man) were changed to be omnivores and carnivores!

It's not really a mystery.  Carnivorous animals go back long before humans.

You could say "Well, God kept spiders, mosquitoes, cats, and other obligate predators out of the garden."  Or alternately, you could imagine that God just miraculously put taurine in plants back then.  But that would  be yet another unscriptural assumption.   This is one of the many reasons that most Christians realize that Genesis 1,2,and 3 are not literal histories, but figurative explanations of God's creation.

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Have you ever considered what we have to anticipate in the Millennial Kingdom and later in the New Earth?

It wouldn't be having to eat in order to survive.   Have a little faith in God.

 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

20 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

I know you want to believe that, but scripture does not say that.  

Yes, I do want to believe that. Because that's exactly what scripture says. You should read it sometime. Here, I'll help you. 

 

Romans 5:12 therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

 

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

 

So you see. In black and white, what I've been saying. Death came through ADAM. It did not exist before him. If you keep arguing now, I don't know what to tell you. I have provided scripture for my viewpoint. This whole time you have refused to provide a single scripture for yours. Is your OPINION more valid than God's word?

[The Barbarian]

I know you want to believe that, but scripture does not say that.  

2 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Yes, I do want to believe that. Because that's exactly what scripture says.

No, that's wrong.   Because scripture makes it clear that the death was not a physical death. You should read it sometime. Here, I'll help you. 

Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

And Adam eats, but he lives on physically for many years thereafter.   If God tells the truth, then the death He mentioned is not a physical one.  

2 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

In fact, if Jesus came to save us from physical death, He failed.   We will all die someday.   But He came to save us from the death that happened to Adam the day that he ate from the tree.   A spiritual death, and God makes that clear.  

Read it and learn.

 

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Yes, I do want to believe that. Because that's exactly what scripture says. You should read it sometime. Here, I'll help you. 

 

Romans 5:12 therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

So you see. In black and white, what I've been saying. Death came through ADAM. It did not exist before him. If you keep arguing now, I don't know what to tell you. I have provided scripture for my viewpoint. This whole time you have refused to provide a single scripture for yours. Is your OPINION more valid than God's word?

The key is that all this is referring to  human beings, not a blanket statement including the animal kingdom.  

We know this because of the CAUSE of HOW death "entered the world";  sin.  Animals don't sin.