Selah7 Posted March 21, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,610 Content Per Day: 2.40 Reputation: 3,183 Days Won: 11 Joined: 05/25/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted March 21, 2023 10 minutes ago, FreeGrace said: Rev 20:10 is a "supposedly" scenario. It is a real scenario. Define "torment". Pain, agony, … Can a spiritual body feel pain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted March 21, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,497 Content Per Day: 8.06 Reputation: 626 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted March 21, 2023 5 hours ago, DeighAnn said: FreeGrace said: Glad I could humor you. If you can prove the "beast and FP" aren't individuals but rather groups or systems, or whatever, please, be my guest. That's the beauty of just believing what is written as written. I don't have to prove or disprove anything, I just have to believe what is written. Well, exactly! Now, can you explain why the Bible refers to the beast and FP in terms of individuals? For example, in Rev 20:10, the Bible describes Satan, the beast and FP as "they" who will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever. So, explain how to torture a system. Or what, exactly, do you think the beast is, if not a person? 5 hours ago, DeighAnn said: YOU on the other hand, have doctrines that demand that Gods words either take on other meanings or get switched around or like you are doing here, putting upon those who's 2nd death takes place in the lake of fire Please show me how my views "take on other meanings or get switched around". As to the 2nd death and the LOF, where ELSE would the 2nd death take place if not IN the LOF??? 5 hours ago, DeighAnn said: the same eternal torment of the beast and the false prophet even though it is clearly stated their PART is death, NOT ETERNAL TORMENT. For one who so often emphasizes "what is written", how come you aren't even reading "what is written" accurately? When a person is cast into the LOF, they DO experience a second death, the second death of their physical resurrected and mortal body. Then, their immortal part, the soul, will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever". Just as "what is written". So, to say "their part is death", is to say they will experience a second death. 5 hours ago, DeighAnn said: They just take place in the same place, but they don't have the same punishment. Faulty conclusion. Rev 20:10 tells us specifically the outcome of being cast into the LOF. Which is the second death and INCLUDES being "tormented day and night for ever and ever". 5 hours ago, DeighAnn said: But, I could give you a billion reasons and none of them are ever going to make a dent. I join the rest of them who will not be replying anymore. Those who can't defend their own positions do finally give up. 5 hours ago, DeighAnn said: So you just keep believing as you do, it obviously brings you lots of pleasure. OK, I see. Annihilationists believe that those who accept the clear words of Rev 20:10 as applying to EVERYONE who will be cast into the LOF are sadists. Well, by application, is your view of God Himself. That is why you so strongly resist the reality of what Scripture SAYS, you know, "what is written". So rather than viewing God as a sadist, you reject "what is written" and make up your own little theory. Aren't you aware of what Jesus taught in Matt 10:15, 11:22 and 24? He made it clear that the LOF will be either more bearable (tolerable) or less for everyone. Some will be tormented more than others, and some will be tormented less than others. It won't be fun for anyone, but it also won't be insufferable pain for anyone either. Maybe that will ease your sensitive emotions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted March 21, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,497 Content Per Day: 8.06 Reputation: 626 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted March 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, Selah7 said: Pain, agony, … Can a spiritual body feel pain? No spiritual body will ever feel pain. Why do you ask? Aren't you aware of the promise of Revb 21:4 - He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” Do you believe the resurrected body of an unsaved person will be a "spiritual body"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah7 Posted March 21, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,610 Content Per Day: 2.40 Reputation: 3,183 Days Won: 11 Joined: 05/25/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted March 21, 2023 9 minutes ago, FreeGrace said: Do you believe the resurrected body of an unsaved person will be a "spiritual body"? Of course! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted March 21, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,497 Content Per Day: 8.06 Reputation: 626 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted March 21, 2023 50 minutes ago, Selah7 said: FreeGrace said: Do you believe the resurrected body of an unsaved person will be a "spiritual body"? Of course! Why? There is no mention or reference of unbelievers in 1 Cor 15. Paul described a spiritual body as an immortal body. That would preclude the unbeliever from another death, and the LOF is called the second death. So your theory is contradicted by Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted March 21, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.59 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 21, 2023 8 hours ago, kenny2212 said: Torment wouldn't be torment if pain isn't felt. Or would it? No body no spirit no soul. That is why we have 2 bodies. This body dies, we move on to realm of next body. If our next body dies in THAT realm, aka 2nd death, then we cease to be because no body spirit soul. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted March 21, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.59 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Selah7 said: Pain, agony, … Can a spiritual body feel pain? Good question... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah7 Posted March 21, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,610 Content Per Day: 2.40 Reputation: 3,183 Days Won: 11 Joined: 05/25/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted March 21, 2023 55 minutes ago, FreeGrace said: Paul described a spiritual body as an immortal body. That would preclude the unbeliever from another death, and the LOF is called the second death. So your theory is contradicted by Scripture. A spiritual body is only incorruptible—not immortal. Only those who are of the first resurrection or the second resurrection will have immortal bodies (eternal lives). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NConly Posted March 21, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,352 Content Per Day: 2.74 Reputation: 621 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/11/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted March 21, 2023 Note that the last passage, 1 Peter 4:5, even extends being raised to judgement to those unfortunate unbaptized Gentiles who knew enough to mock Christians in Peter’s day. Passages like this show why Paul does not say “the dead will raised immortal” – because if they were raised immortal then it would read as if there was no judgement. Wheras “raised incorruptible” or “raised imperishable”, simply means not decaying, not raised with the illnesses of the last years of life before the first death. The one thing it does not mean is “raised indestructible even to God”. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny2212 Posted March 21, 2023 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 49 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 359 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 101 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/27/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 21, 2023 4 hours ago, Selah7 said: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. - 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 (KJV) This is a new one! Are you saying the "all" includes believers and unbelievers? 1 Corinthians 15:54-57 (NKJV) - 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through OUR LORD Jesus Christ. Is the Lord Jesus Christ the Lord of unbelievers too? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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