Your closest friendnt Posted May 6, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,896 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,779 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted May 6, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, Roymond said: No, we read that they are two distinct Persons. Jesus can say that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him because they are the same being, just not the same person. We cannot say they are different because they are one, and if they are one then there is not difference, only distinction. We need to discuss that, and I am polite...Obviously to say that I disagree very strongly...but this is not my word or your word...no is it not like that...in some other things maybe it is...But this is not about us ... ***Jesus said: that we are one with him.... What did he wanted to say? And that we are one with the Father... The three of us are one... All the believers and the Father are one...we are one.. We are human beings and the Father is not a human being and we are one.. Two different beings and we are one. Edited May 6, 2023 by Your closest friendnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblican Posted May 10, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 10, 2023 On 5/6/2023 at 2:03 AM, Roymond said: Jesus was begotten also of Mary, from whom came His human nature. He was fully human, which means He had a human spirit. Jesus did not have two spirits. As a man he had a body, a soul and a spirit. His Spirit is the Holy Spirit and that is where His divinity is found. His Spirit unified with His begotten soul/person makes Him fully God, His soul unified with His body makes Him fully man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblican Posted May 10, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 10, 2023 On 5/6/2023 at 2:07 AM, Roymond said: That was a heresy of the early church, never an orthodox doctrine. The term of the councils was "eternally begotten of the Father", which means there was never a time, however remote, when the Son did not exist -- in fact the teaching that there was a time when the Son did not exist was condemned at more than one Council. He was indeed begotten "prior to His incarnation", but the word "once" is an error; to use clumsy English language He was always being begotten of the Father, and the Father was always begetting Him. You are incorrect. By the fourth and fifth councils you had to believe that Jesus' was twice begotten once prior to His incarnation and then again through Mary. If you didn't believe that you were anathema, or cursed. I have quotes from Calvin and Wesley who also taught the same thing. However they believed that Jesus always existed within the Father. If Jesus' soul/person did not have a beginning at some point in infinity then we do not have a Father and Son but two coeternal gods and that is polytheism. Jesus' soul has to be a distinct begotten entity from the Father in order to take our sins upon Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roymond Posted May 14, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 782 Content Per Day: 1.50 Reputation: 238 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2023 On 5/9/2023 at 7:28 PM, Biblican said: Jesus did not have two spirits. As a man he had a body, a soul and a spirit. His Spirit is the Holy Spirit and that is where His divinity is found. His Spirit unified with His begotten soul/person makes Him fully God, His soul unified with His body makes Him fully man. If a normal human has a body, a soul, and a spirit, then so did Jesus -- a human body, a human soul, and a human spirit. If He lacked anything that we have, then He cannot be our Savior because He is not fully human. When He said from the Cross, "Into Your hands I commend My spirit", He wasn't speaking of the Holy Spirit, Who needed no commending to the Father, but of His human spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roymond Posted May 14, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 782 Content Per Day: 1.50 Reputation: 238 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2023 On 5/9/2023 at 7:34 PM, Biblican said: You are incorrect. By the fourth and fifth councils you had to believe that Jesus' was twice begotten once prior to His incarnation and then again through Mary. If you didn't believe that you were anathema, or cursed. I have quotes from Calvin and Wesley who also taught the same thing. However they believed that Jesus always existed within the Father. If Jesus' soul/person did not have a beginning at some point in infinity then we do not have a Father and Son but two coeternal gods and that is polytheism. Jesus' soul has to be a distinct begotten entity from the Father in order to take our sins upon Him. I have read the proceedings of those councils in the original Greek and they do not say what you claim, they in fact condemn it! You are saying that there was a time when the Son "was not", which is explicitly condemned; the language of the Councils is that He was "eternally begotten of the Father". This is found in Hebrews, where it calls Jesus “the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature”: God the Father was never without His radiance, and thus He was never without the Son. As for the church Fathers, they regularly noted that Christ is called "the only-begotten God" -- as Irenaeus said, “The Father is God, and the Son is God, for whatever is begotten of God is God. John Wesley never taught what you claim; rather he wrote, "We believe Christ to be the eternal, supreme God". And Calvin called Christ the "eternal Son, who is homoousios with the Father". As Chrysostom explained, the begetting of the Son by the Father is an eternal process, that there was never a time when the Father was not begetting the Son, and there was never a time when the Son was not being begotten of the Father. "Begotten" for us creatures is a one-time event, but with God it is a statement of relationship: the Father is Father because He always has begotten the Son, and the Son is Son because He is ever being begotten. This does not make two gods because the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are all one single God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblican Posted May 16, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 16, 2023 On 5/14/2023 at 1:32 AM, Roymond said: If a normal human has a body, a soul, and a spirit, then so did Jesus -- a human body, a human soul, and a human spirit. If He lacked anything that we have, then He cannot be our Savior because He is not fully human. When He said from the Cross, "Into Your hands I commend My spirit", He wasn't speaking of the Holy Spirit, Who needed no commending to the Father, but of His human spirit. Jesus did have a normal human body except His spirit or life force had to be the Holy Spirit and that is where His divinity is found and what distinguished Him from Adam. As the Apostle Paul said, Adam was made a living soul, Jesus was made a life giving Spirit. The Spirit is what gives life to the body. What made Jesus divine is that His Spirit, that which gave His human body life is the Holy Spirit. That is what made Him God manifest in Human flesh. Jesus is fully human because His soul/person was unified with His flesh, fully God because His Spirit is God's Spirit, the life in Himself John 5:26. If Jesus was given life by a human spirit inherited from Adam, then He could not be divine. The term He used "Into Your Hands I commend My Spirit" is a common saying and is just another way to say, I am dying now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblican Posted May 16, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 16, 2023 On 5/14/2023 at 2:04 AM, Roymond said: I have read the proceedings of those councils in the original Greek and they do not say what you claim, they in fact condemn it! You are saying that there was a time when the Son "was not", which is explicitly condemned; the language of the Councils is that He was "eternally begotten of the Father". This is found in Hebrews, where it calls Jesus “the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature”: God the Father was never without His radiance, and thus He was never without the Son. As for the church Fathers, they regularly noted that Christ is called "the only-begotten God" -- as Irenaeus said, “The Father is God, and the Son is God, for whatever is begotten of God is God. John Wesley never taught what you claim; rather he wrote, "We believe Christ to be the eternal, supreme God". And Calvin called Christ the "eternal Son, who is homoousios with the Father". As Chrysostom explained, the begetting of the Son by the Father is an eternal process, that there was never a time when the Father was not begetting the Son, and there was never a time when the Son was not being begotten of the Father. "Begotten" for us creatures is a one-time event, but with God it is a statement of relationship: the Father is Father because He always has begotten the Son, and the Son is Son because He is ever being begotten. This does not make two gods because the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are all one single God. The purpose of my post was to remove the stumblingblock of mis-interpretations of the Trinity so that Muslims can come to Jesus. Because of the wordings of the definitions that are used, they think that Christians are polytheists and you confirmed the same errors that perpetuate the Muslims conceptions. Part of that is because you are relying on what others have said and not what the scriptures actually teach. It was always believed that Jesus always existed within the Father as the "essence of His being" they also believed that there was a specific point in infinity when His soul was begotten. The term "eternally begotten" simply means that He was begotten from eternity, from a very long time ago. The word begotten means birthed. Any one who is birthed must come from a pre-existing substance. Jesus soul/person that was to be the offering for our sins was begotten or birthed from the Father's substance which is Spirit, then unified with the Father's Spirit which we see in Isaiah 42:1. In order to take our sins upon Himself, His soul had to have been a distinct begotten element from the Father. Jesus' soul was begotten, His Spirit is the Divine eternal Holy Spirit of the Father. That is why He is called God by Wesley, but they certainly did not see Jesus as God the Father. The very use of the word begotten means that there had to be a beginning or a birth at some point. The documentation I read was from the fifth council which stated specifically that Jesus was twice begotten., once prior to His incarnation and again from Mary and if you didn't believe that you were anathema. The quotes I have from Wesley, Calvin and Justin Martyr are as follows. In Wesley's commentary on the whole Bible on Colossians 1:5 he says,... "the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature, begotten before every creature; subsisting before all worlds before all time, from all eternity." Justin Martyr from his Dialogue with Trypho- "God beget before all creatures a Beginning, a certain reasonable power from Himself." Calvin says in his commentary on Colossians 1:15 from the Geneva Bible - "A graphic description of the person of Christ, by which we understand, that in Him alone God shows Himself to be seen: who was begotten of the Father before anything was made, that is from everlasting. And by Him also all things are made without any exception, by Whom they continue to exist, and Whose glory they serve. Begotten before anything was made and therefore the everlasting Son of the Everlasting Father." Again, the word begotten means to be birthed, to proceed out from a preexisting substance. Wesley no way meant that Jesus was God the Father, He is God because God was in Him as the apostles taught. They are two distinct persons/souls, one Spirit which makes them one God, and unifies the persons, but we must always make it very clear that Jesus is the Son of God and He is not the Father. If we cannot explain how God, the Spirit and Jesus are unified from the scriptures then we are tritheists. Jesus is "God" because His begotten soul has been unified with God's Holy Spirit and that makes them one substance. Chrysostom would have to explain to me from the scriptures alone how he arrived at his explanation which is basically his personal philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted May 16, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,896 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,779 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted May 16, 2023 3 hours ago, Biblican said: Jesus did have a normal human body except His spirit or life force had to be the Holy Spirit and that is where His divinity is found and what distinguished Him from Adam. As the Apostle Paul said, Adam was made a living soul, Jesus was made a life giving Spirit. The Spirit is what gives life to the body. What made Jesus divine is that His Spirit, that which gave His human body life is the Holy Spirit. That is what made Him God manifest in Human flesh. Jesus is fully human because His soul/person was unified with His flesh, fully God because His Spirit is God's Spirit, the life in Himself John 5:26. If Jesus was given life by a human spirit inherited from Adam, then He could not be divine. The term He used "Into Your Hands I commend My Spirit" is a common saying and is just another way to say, I am dying now. Scriptures that shows who called Jesus his Son. *At the baptism of Jesus in the Jordan River. Mathew 3:16 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” * Matthew 17:1-5 New International Version The Transfiguration 17:1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. 4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”. * Some of the Scriptures where Jesus is telling us who his Father is and whose Son Jesus is.. John 5:18-23 18 were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever [e]the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roymond Posted May 19, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 782 Content Per Day: 1.50 Reputation: 238 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted May 19, 2023 On 5/16/2023 at 10:38 AM, Biblican said: Jesus did have a normal human body except His spirit or life force had to be the Holy Spirit and that is where His divinity is found and what distinguished Him from Adam. As the Apostle Paul said, Adam was made a living soul, Jesus was made a life giving Spirit. The Spirit is what gives life to the body. What made Jesus divine is that His Spirit, that which gave His human body life is the Holy Spirit. That is what made Him God manifest in Human flesh. Jesus is fully human because His soul/person was unified with His flesh, fully God because His Spirit is God's Spirit, the life in Himself John 5:26. If Jesus was given life by a human spirit inherited from Adam, then He could not be divine. The term He used "Into Your Hands I commend My Spirit" is a common saying and is just another way to say, I am dying now. No -- if Jesus had no human spirit then He was not fully human, and if He was not fully human then He cannot be a Redeemer. Jesus was divine because He is the eternal Son of the Father who became flesh. The idea you are propounding makes Jesus partly human and partly divine, not fully human and fully divine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roymond Posted May 19, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 782 Content Per Day: 1.50 Reputation: 238 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted May 19, 2023 On 5/16/2023 at 11:17 AM, Biblican said: The purpose of my post was to remove the stumblingblock of mis-interpretations of the Trinity so that Muslims can come to Jesus. Because of the wordings of the definitions that are used, they think that Christians are polytheists and you confirmed the same errors that perpetuate the Muslims conceptions. Part of that is because you are relying on what others have said and not what the scriptures actually teach. You cannot explain things to one set of heretics by using another heresy. That Muslims may think Christians are polytheists is not a matter than requires us to move into heresy to accommodate them. On 5/16/2023 at 11:17 AM, Biblican said: It was always believed that Jesus always existed within the Father as the "essence of His being" they also believed that there was a specific point in infinity when His soul was begotten. No! The councils flat out condemned the idea that Jesus had a beginning of any kind! That position was summed up by saying that there was a time when the Son was not, and it was rejected. On 5/16/2023 at 11:17 AM, Biblican said: The term "eternally begotten" simply means that He was begotten from eternity, from a very long time ago. No, it means that there was never a time when He was not being begotten. I read this stuff in the original language, and "eternally begotten" means just that: that there is no point in eternity when the Father was not begetting the Son, no point when the Son was not being begotten. On 5/16/2023 at 11:17 AM, Biblican said: The word begotten means birthed. Any one who is birthed must come from a pre-existing substance. That is forcing God to fit a human model. "Pre-existing substance" is a philosophical notion that applies only to material things; it does not apply to God since Jesus is of the same substance as the Father. The existence of the Son is God; as John wrote (translating literally) "And GOD is what the Logos was being". The Son has no other existence except being God. And that only makes multiple Gods to those who restrict God to being no better than a man. On 5/16/2023 at 11:17 AM, Biblican said: Jesus soul/person that was to be the offering for our sins was begotten or birthed from the Father's substance which is Spirit, then unified with the Father's Spirit which we see in Isaiah 42:1. In order to take our sins upon Himself, His soul had to have been a distinct begotten element from the Father. Jesus' soul was begotten, His Spirit is the Divine eternal Holy Spirit of the Father. That is why He is called God by Wesley, but they certainly did not see Jesus as God the Father. The very use of the word begotten means that there had to be a beginning or a birth at some point. You insist on reducing God to being a human being -- He is not! God does not beget the way a man begets; His begetting is continual without beginning. That is why He is called "Father" and is called "Son"; those are not things that happened to Him as though He could change, they are realities of Him who does not change. On 5/16/2023 at 11:17 AM, Biblican said: The documentation I read was from the fifth council which stated specifically that Jesus was twice begotten., once prior to His incarnation and again from Mary and if you didn't believe that you were anathema. "Twice begotten" does not mean that the first was like the second. The council explicitly says that the Son was begotten "before all time", apart from time, meaning throughout eternity. On 5/16/2023 at 11:17 AM, Biblican said: The quotes I have from Wesley, Calvin and Justin Martyr are as follows. In Wesley's commentary on the whole Bible on Colossians 1:5 he says,... "the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature, begotten before every creature; subsisting before all worlds before all time, from all eternity." Justin Martyr from his Dialogue with Trypho- "God beget before all creatures a Beginning, a certain reasonable power from Himself." Calvin says in his commentary on Colossians 1:15 from the Geneva Bible - "A graphic description of the person of Christ, by which we understand, that in Him alone God shows Himself to be seen: who was begotten of the Father before anything was made, that is from everlasting. And by Him also all things are made without any exception, by Whom they continue to exist, and Whose glory they serve. Begotten before anything was made and therefore the everlasting Son of the Everlasting Father." Again, the word begotten means to be birthed, to proceed out from a preexisting substance. I put in bold and green where they clearly say that the Son was always begotten, Wesley using the phrase "from all eternity" and Calvin "from everlasting". These phrases indicate that as long as there was the Father, so also there was the Son. On 5/16/2023 at 11:17 AM, Biblican said: He is God because God was in Him as the apostles taught. That is not what the apostles taught. John wrote that "GOD is what the Logos was being"; He was God because that's what/who He was before He became flesh. On 5/16/2023 at 11:17 AM, Biblican said: They are two distinct persons/souls, one Spirit which makes them one God, and unifies the persons, but we must always make it very clear that Jesus is the Son of God and He is not the Father. The scripture calls Jesus the "only-begotten God", just as John identifies Him as God who was face-to-face with God while being God. The Son is fully God as is the Father. On 5/16/2023 at 11:17 AM, Biblican said: If we cannot explain how God, the Spirit and Jesus are unified from the scriptures then we are tritheists. Jesus is "God" because His begotten soul has been unified with God's Holy Spirit and that makes them one substance. No, Jesus is God because He is the Logos whose very being is God, as John says. "One substance" means that everything the Father is, so also is the Son, that the Son is fully God just as the Father is. They are not "made" one substance, they have always been one substance, one being, one essence, since "substance" means the "stuff" of their being. On 5/16/2023 at 11:17 AM, Biblican said: Chrysostom would have to explain to me from the scriptures alone how he arrived at his explanation which is basically his personal philosophy. He was preaching on John 1, which makes it clear that the Logos was and is God, and that the Logos became flesh, which is to say that God became flesh. That isn't "his personal philosophy", it is what the apostle wrote: since the Logos is the Son, and the Logos is God, then the Son is God; and since the Logos was always with God, then the Son was always with God; thus there was never a time when the Father was but the Son was not; both are God and thus both have had their being from all eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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