Living In The Religious Matrix

[Starise]

It seems some of the things many of us were  taught, even by well meaning people in the course of our christian lives  in the past have been occasionally all wrong.

Granted most of it has been in the area of secondary doctrine and would not have made any serious difference in my salvation one way or the other.

Some of the things some believers have taken to be a truth have been proven to either be abolutely wrong or at best, misleading information.

I'll pick a few of my own I have come across personally

End times teachings- My early childhood church had this all wrong.

Church on Sunday- We gentiles have taken the horse right off the path here on this one.

Baptism- The church I now attend could not have this more wrong. Picking up babies and saying, " I baptise you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost".

The process most churches use to decide who does what and the idea of a "professional" clergy.- The vote is still out on this one for me. I am not convinced the methods and rules employed are always biblical. Or at the very least, they are biblical but add  much uneeded uecessary fluff to it.

Has anyone else had these sorts of revelation? Sometimes many years after they have been in these religious systems?

How do you cope with the knowledge things are all wrong after you've heavily invested in people and are possibly ingrained in these systems?

How would you get out of it ( if necessary ) in order to pursue what you really believe in?

 

 

[Vine Abider]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

It seems some of the things many of us were  taught, even by well meaning people in the course of our christian lives  in the past has been occasionally all wrong.

Granted most of it has been in the area of secondary doctrine and would not have made any serious difference in my salvation one way or the other.

Some of the things some believers have taken to be a truth have been proven to either be abolutely wrong or at best, misleading information.

I'll pick a few of my own I have come across personally

End times teachings- My early childhood church had this all wrong.

Church on Sunday- We gentiles have taken the horse right off the path here on this one.

Baptism- The church I now attend could not have this more wrong. Picking up babies and saying, " I baptise you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost".

The process most churches use to decide who does what and the idea of a "professional" clergy.- The vote is still out on this one for me. I am not convinced the methods and rules employed are always biblical. Or at the very least, they are biblical but add  much uneeded uecessary fluff to it.

Has anyone else had these sorts of rvelation? Sometimes many years after they have been in these religious systems?

How do you cope with the knowledge things are all wrong after you've heavily invested in people and are possibly ingrained in these systems?

How would you get out of it ( if necessary ) in order to pursue what you really believe in?

 

 

Boy, you've really laid some things out there bro!   I'm with you on pretty much everything you stated.

"The System" - there is a lot to what you say!  And interesting that you use "Matrix" in the title . . .  To me, religion is a manmade construct; a form; a set way of doing things.  Man loves to organize and make things all neat and tidy, and this organizing and systematizing bent gets brought to our relationship with the Lord and His saints.  Some of these things may serve us well; other things put/keep us in bondage.

I meet with a very non-hierarchy fellowship, with no paid positions. Legalism is at a minimum and the pursuit of Christ together is emphasized above all else. But if I didn't have this fellowship, I would probably seek out a home-based ekklesia that is not connected with an "official" group.

[bropro]

4 hours ago, Starise said:

It seems some of the things many of us were  taught, even by well meaning people in the course of our christian lives  in the past has been occasionally all wrong.

Granted most of it has been in the area of secondary doctrine and would not have made any serious difference in my salvation one way or the other.

Some of the things some believers have taken to be a truth have been proven to either be abolutely wrong or at best, misleading information.

I'll pick a few of my own I have come across personally

End times teachings- My early childhood church had this all wrong.

Church on Sunday- We gentiles have taken the horse right off the path here on this one.

Baptism- The church I now attend could not have this more wrong. Picking up babies and saying, " I baptise you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost".

The process most churches use to decide who does what and the idea of a "professional" clergy.- The vote is still out on this one for me. I am not convinced the methods and rules employed are always biblical. Or at the very least, they are biblical but add  much uneeded uecessary fluff to it.

Has anyone else had these sorts of rvelation? Sometimes many years after they have been in these religious systems?

How do you cope with the knowledge things are all wrong after you've heavily invested in people and are possibly ingrained in these systems?

How would you get out of it ( if necessary ) in order to pursue what you really believe in?

 

 

When I first come to the Lord I was zealous for truth, but many times looked to the wrong sources. One time I told my pastor that I wanted to be a Christian scientist, but he set me straight on that issue using the word of God. Then another time I was going to study the book of Mormon, but again was led away from that pursuit (I don’t remember what or who set me straight on that one). Then I started listening to some of the HYPER WOF teaching but found that much of their teaching did not line up with the written word, which was made clear to me by yet another pastor. Fortunately, I sat under a pastor that encouraged everyone to seek out the truth by going to the scriptures themselves to make sure that what they heard or read from other resources lined up with what God was saying.

I have learned that as I prayerfully search the scriptures for truth, that the Spirit of truth will guide my understanding. As I seek to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, the Holy Spirit is aiding me to not only understand the truth, but to apply it. When the Holy Spirit leads me to the truth, and I apply it, then I experience transformation. I guess what I am communicating about my journey, is that in my zeal for truth, God provided the way for me to find the it through some good pastors who directed me away from erroneous teachings to the pure teachings of God’s word.

There are a lot of good teachers and ministers that have a solid handle on the word of God. But ultimately, when I stand before God to give an account of my life to Him, I stand there not with my teachers, pastors, commentaries, or books about the bible as good as they may be. I stand there alone. Take for instance, if when I stand before the Lord and He questions me and I answer “but pastor so and so said this, or my commentary said this,” He may respond, “ I’ll be getting to them later, again, what do you have to say about what I have given you?”  BTW, this scenario is not supported by scripture, it just come out of some of my own thinking.

What it boils down to me is this is not about religion or denominational teachings. This is about knowing God intimately (John 17:3). It is about living in a personal love relationship with God. Religion and denominations don’t have the capacity to make that happen. Only God Himself.

I did get caught up early on in legalistic teaching but was able to overcome it by applying this passage:
¹³  …………. I focus on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead,
¹⁴  I press on to reach the end of the race and receive the heavenly prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us. (Phil. 3:13-14). Have a blessed day.

Gary

 

 

[FJK]

Sometimes well meaning Christian people get up in the morning with the sincere desire to live by and carry God's word with them throughout the day then while reaching for their sheep coat to wear they accidentally grab and put on a  a wolf coat instead, never realizing their mistake.

 

It helps to pray for guidance through the Holy Spirit, test every word against the Bible, and test every spirit against falsity by confessing Jesus as Christ come in the flesh before adopting anything as truth in your own life.

 

My own simple way of understanding these things, there are surely many other ways to look at it as well.

[Starise]

15 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I meet with a very non-hierarchy fellowship, with no paid positions. Legalism is at a minimum and the pursuit of Christ together is emphasized above all else. But if I didn't have this fellowship, I would probably seek out a home-based ekklesia that is not connected with an "official" group.

Quakers? Mennonite or Brethren? 

14 hours ago, bropro said:

here are a lot of good teachers and ministers that have a solid handle on the word of God. But ultimately, when I stand before God to give an account of my life to Him, I stand there not with my teachers, pastors, commentaries, or books about the bible as good as they may be. I stand there alone. Take for instance, if when I stand before the Lord and He questions me and I answer “but pastor so and so said this, or my commentary said this,” He may respond, “ I’ll be getting to them later, again, what do you have to say about what I have given you?”  BTW, this scenario is not supported by scripture, it just come out of some of my own thinking.

What it boils down to me is this is not about religion or denominational teachings. This is about knowing God intimately (John 17:3). It is about living in a personal love relationship with God. Religion and denominations don’t have the capacity to make that happen. Only God Himself.

Amen brother, I'm glad you see the way now. In every congregation we have been a part of we made strong attachments. In one church we left, one of the members said it felt like a divorce when we left. I felt similar, but at the time a move was necessary.

I liked your point about who God will address when we get to His throne. When our number comes up, it will only be us.

Right now I know there are some serious issues with this church's ideas on baptism and maybe even in some other areas. I was not naive' but figured I would be ok with it. Lately I have felt a conviction to look at Saturday worship which would literally turn my life upside down.  Traditionally Satuday has always been the main day I get things done at home. In the last church where they had end times all messed up I felt uncomfortable every time the pastor preached on the subject because I felt he was misinforming those under him.

Last Sunday I attended my church and they had an infant baptism ( Presbyterian ) and at one point when I was up front a few months before that on the WT I assisted the pastor to move the water sprinkle thingy, not sure what it's called, but it ISN'T a baptismal. I was very thankful the elders prayed for my sickness, but they didn't use oil. That bothered me so much that when we went home I asked my wife to put some oil on me and pray. I know these are probably seen as little things, but to me they are big things.

Why not call it infant dedication and just leave the word baptism out of it? Seriously. How can such a bright bunch of people be getting this all so wrong?

Why would a group of elders pray over a sick person and leave out the oil?

Why won't pastors study the bible and find out how it's all really going to go down in the end times and stop preaching some crazy other message that misleads people?

I know the Sat/Sun day of worship is a big thing and that Sunday has been adopted by everyone except for Jews, Messianic congregations and 7th Day Adventists, but I feel convinced in my heart we have been misled. Most try to justify it because it's too difficult to back out for them and frankly, it would be a tough change for me having been raised on Sunday worhip all my life.

Maybe for others it will be something else that pricks your heart, like maybe the acceptance of sexual sin from the pulpit or a church that takes part in a denomination that accepts these things.

If I were to make a break from my church it would really hurt in terms of those missed relationships. I know my better half will absolutely hate it because she has good friends there. So far as fellowship we have never had it better than where we are now. It's like an extended family. 

I always take awhile to think things out before I do anything, but these things have been rolling around in my mind for some time now. Why is it so hard to just find a church that preaches the word, doesn't have power grabs, and worships in the way churches were supposed to worship? Does things the way the bible says to do them without additions or subtractions?

Is it better to stay in a place that compromises the truth either knowingly or unnowingly in exchange for all of the things that are good about that congregation, or is it better to just keep looking for an assembly where we feel the most spiritually comfortable? 

For many years I was in one of these religious matrixs and didn't know any better. I woke up from that, but now it seems almost impossible to find any church that doesn't follow their denominations line even if it is in error.

 

[ladypeartree]

I dont worship on Saturday or Sunday I worship EVERY DAY .   I dont see why you cant have fellowship with those you enjoy the company of even if you dont agree with everything they do ( unless it is a major problem such as condoning any sort of sin just to fit into the worlds view )  Even the disciples didnt agree with everything John 14 :2 In my Fathers house are many mansions so one size does NOT fit all 

[Ray12614]

We must not 'cherry pick' scriptures to validate what we do as Christians and how we act, 'rightfully dividing' scripture with the whole counsel of the scriptures, line upon line. Some traditions are good . . . remember not to throw out the baby with the bath water so-to-speak . . . . 

To illustrate; I had to leave my home church of 30 years because of moral failings of the pastorate (significant, but I won't go into detail), and for a year we attended an local denominational church to be refreshed and receive healing for what had happened to us (again I won't go into details). One man who had left with us was very bitter about his having to leave was critical about our previous church and every leader there, including myself even though I left with them. He asked me in an critical way "Well are you enjoying doing religion in this religious church?", and the anger was just spewing out of him, very bad . . . .    I answered him and said "To you it is religion, to me, I am gathering to corporately worship Jesus my Master and Savior, and to receive healing and strength that only He can give".

Was there 'religion' in that temporary church we landed in? Of course there was. Did it stop me from loving Jesus and His people and obeying the Bible scripture to assemble together? Absolutely NOT! I refuse to disobey scripture just because of my experiences that happen to me. Attitude is everything for a Christian.

Of course, 1 year later after we all had 'healed-up' from the terrible situation, Jesus directed us to start a new non-denominational church that is gospel and family orientated, and after 8 years we are still serving Jesus corporately in that church. Jesus is being glorified there and I am grateful to be a part of that.

What happened to that bitter man ? ? ?  Well, he pretty much hates everything and everybody who does not agree with him, and is an loner who is very unhappy and wants to tear down anything that is 'religious' or 'church related'.  I do hope and pray that Jesus is merciful to him when he stands before Jesus' Bema seat.

P.S. We are still good friends with the temporary church pastorate and the sweet brother and sisters there. We are very grateful to them for extending hospitality and grace to us.

Ray . . . . 

 

[Starise]

1 hour ago, Ray12614 said:

We must not 'cherry pick' scriptures to validate what we do as Christians and how we act, 'rightfully dividing' scripture with the whole counsel of the scriptures, line upon line. Some traditions are good . . . remember not to throw out the baby with the bath water so-to-speak . . . . 

To illustrate; I had to leave my home church of 30 years because of moral failings of the pastorate (significant, but I won't go into detail), and for a year we attended an local denominational church to be refreshed and receive healing for what had happened to us (again I won't go into details). One man who had left with us was very bitter about his having to leave was critical about our previous church and every leader there, including myself even though I left with them. He asked me in an critical way "Well are you enjoying doing religion in this religious church?", and the anger was just spewing out of him, very bad . . . .    I answered him and said "To you it is religion, to me, I am gathering to corporately worship Jesus my Master and Savior, and to receive healing and strength that only He can give".

Was there 'religion' in that temporary church we landed in? Of course there was. Did it stop me from loving Jesus and His people and obeying the Bible scripture to assemble together? Absolutely NOT! I refuse to disobey scripture just because of my experiences that happen to me. Attitude is everything for a Christian.

Of course, 1 year later after we all had 'healed-up' from the terrible situation, Jesus directed us to start a new non-denominational church that is gospel and family orientated, and after 8 years we are still serving Jesus corporately in that church. Jesus is being glorified there and I am grateful to be a part of that.

What happened to that bitter man ? ? ?  Well, he pretty much hates everything and everybody who does not agree with him, and is an loner who is very unhappy and wants to tear down anything that is 'religious' or 'church related'.  I do hope and pray that Jesus is merciful to him when he stands before Jesus' Bema seat.

P.S. We are still good friends with the temporary church pastorate and the sweet brother and sisters there. We are very grateful to them for extending hospitality and grace to us.

Ray . . . . 

 

Well, I never want to become that 'bitter man".  I have met several who would fit that description. I admit to having had to deal with some bitterness in the past over things I won't go into here, but to me they were legitimate wrongs and unfair issues. I have since made up with those involved, but I can't embrace what they are doing. I don't make it a point go around gossiping about them to others, but as you have seen, for example sake I have cited a few of the things that have really bothered me at my core while having not named any names. 

I have had to let go of some of the things I once did as church "ministries" as a result of either my stances on teachings or just what I considered to be big bungled oversights on the part of some of those leaders go. I have voiced my views to my wife, but don't make a habit of really mentioning it to anyone because the issues I have are mine alone and there really is no need. If I'm in a bible study class and some of these subjects are brought up I will sometimes kindly give my opinions. What I really dislike is the 'steering' sometimes involved in these smaller groups in order to keep everyone on that denominational page. Prayer time seems to come up suddenly when they get uncomfortable and I can read that. I am not argumentive, just lovingly opinionated which can also cause discomfort. Keeping discussions "in the lane" just because they are uncomfortable I think does a disservice to everyone, but that's usually what happens.

If we find a non biblical practice going on, then really no names need to be mentioned because everyone knows who is doing it and so it indirectly points to them, even if it wasn't the intent of the discussion.

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

Quakers? Mennonite or Brethren? 

I suppose you could say an offshoot of Brethren, but no official affiliations. 

 

[Starise]

34 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

I suppose you could say an offshoot of Brethren, but no official affiliations. 

 

Gotcha.