What If?

[Arial]

The primary view of eschatology in the churches today presents a rapture of believers being taken up to heaven before a literal seven year period called the tribulation just before Christ's second coming. In this view the judgments and tribulations of Revelation are said to be literal, though symbolocaly presented. Representations of something that is literal. It also arrives in some forms of dispensationalism as a separate salvation for the Jewish nation. Taking  place at a different time  than that of the Gentiles or pre-millennial believing Jews. It is the Gentiles and these Jews who are the Church and the body of Christ becomes one in the new heaven and new earth. In this view, where Jesus is literally reigning as King on earth in Israel, it has a reinstatement of the animal sacrifices. (I will keep my opinion of this and my reaction to it when first I heard it, to myself.)

This is a relative new view of eschatology but at the same time it has been the predominant and only taught view that any alive today have ever heard, until recently. Recently because  other views, particularly the amillennial/idealist view of Revelation revived along with the supposedly dead Calvinism/Reformed theology.

I myself adhered to this view for a number of years simply because I trusted the teachers to know what they were talking about.

To interject, though amillennialism technically means no millennial, that is not what it actually means when applied to an interpretation of Revelation. It means that the 1000 year reign is not literal but figurative. It represents an undisclosed long period of time. In this view, the time period between Christ's first and second coming.

The support for this can be found within the Bible and in God Himself. There is never an iota of happenstance or circumstance or anything ever being arbitrary with God. That is who He is. Perfect. Two place we see this is in the genealogies and with numbers. They are never arbitrary but contain the perfection and omniscience of God. When He uses a number the number itself has meaning, always, though it may go unnoticed by us. Even in Revelation He is constantly using groups of three and seven.

Here are some of the most common examples of numbers in scripture.

1 is the only divisible # by itself, independent of any other numeral yet composes them all. In the Bible it centers on the unity and primacy of the God family being one. It also represents the unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

2 of a witness (Ex 25:22; Matt 26:60;), a union (gen 2:23), Christ and the church (1 Cor 12), or a division as in two Testaments old and new.

3 of perfection or completeness. It is the first of four spiritually perfect numerals, the others being 7, 10, 12

6 is related to man and human weakness, the evils of the devil and the manifestation of sin.

7 completeness and perfection both physical and spiritual.

12 symbolizes God's power and authority, as well as a perfect governmental foundation. Rev alone has 22 occurences of the number.

1000 according to a principle of prophecy in the Bible is that a prophetic day can equal one or a thousand years in human history. (Ez 4:4-6; Psalm 90:4; 2 Peter 3:8) In prophecy therefore, it could simply expresses an undisclosed by God amount of time in which the prophecy is being or will be fulfilled. God is not bound by time, He is omniscient and transcendent.

To be continued.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arial]

What If? continued.

So that is the millennial view of the mode of interpretation I am presenting. What is the idealism mode? 

It says the visions of Rev represent trends and forces, often spiritual and so invisible, engaged in warfare of the Kingdom of God with the devil's kingdom of darkness that continues between the victory won by Christ in His suffering and exaltation and that of His glorious bodily return. Rather than depicting specific events the visions show ongoing and repeated principles and patterns in this spiritual war. These principles are operative throughout the church age and may have repeated embodiments. We see it in the times of persecution of the church and in judgments that have appeared in various times and various places. The visions themselves provide complementary  perspectives on the church age rather than a chronologically successive calendar of events.

So what if there is no rapture of the saints and no literal seven year period of unsurpassed tribulation in which the visions play out one after the other during that seven years?

It has come to puzzle me what purpose Revelation is playing for those to whom it was written and to the saints who were and are living since, if none of them are going to be here when it happens?

Revelation, like all the epistles, is a letter. It was written to specific churches, the seven mentioned in Asia, but like all the writings of all the Bible, are meant for all believers of all time. If we look at historical evidence we will find that those seven churches were in the midst of specific troubles, not the least of which was persecution. The letter was written for encouragement and  warnings. Encouragement to stand firm in the faith and not lose heart. Warnings against compromise of doctrine or lifestyle, of poluting the purity of His church, or being complacent. There were both Jewish and Gentile believers in those churches, the Jewish believers being persecuted by Jewish non-believers  and the Gentile believers having come out of the surrounding paganism, as well as pressures from the controlling government.

As such this becomes both encouragement and warning in our own churches today. And specifically a strengthening to stand firm and fast against false teaching in the face of persecution even to the point of being martyred. For the persecution of the church by governments will get worse. We must be prepared spiritually to endure unto the end should His coming be "delayed". Meaning if we are still alive as the end draws nearer.

To say that the saints will not be here and will not undergo this suffering and persecution, is to make the book of Revelation into no more than an exercise in speculation about symbols and times and what not, rather than a preparing of the saints for their entire life and death. Rather than a rejoicing in the power and glory of our King. The book of Revelation is revealing Jesus.

And even now a great swath of His church has abandoned sound doctrine and the world has been brought in.

 

 

 

 

[Michael37]

19 hours ago, Arial said:

It has come to puzzle me what purpose Revelation is playing for those to whom it was written and to the saints who were and are living since, if none of them are going to be here when it happens?

Every story needs a conclusion. 

By showing John the terminally engineered nihilistic of this fallen Creation and having him record what he saw, God's honesty is on display, as it has been since the events described in Genesis. This blesses His people as they read what God has given them in preparation for future glory with Christ for eternity.   

Rev 1:1-3  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,  (2)  who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.  (3)  Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
 

[Marathoner]

On 4/15/2023 at 9:17 AM, Arial said:

The primary view of eschatology in the churches today presents a rapture of believers being taken up to heaven before a literal seven year period called the tribulation just before Christ's second coming. In this view the judgments and tribulations of Revelation are said to be literal, though symbolocaly presented. Representations of something that is literal. It also arrives in some forms of dispensationalism as a separate salvation for the Jewish nation. Taking  place at a different time  than that of the Gentiles or pre-millennial believing Jews. It is the Gentiles and these Jews who are the Church and the body of Christ becomes one in the new heaven and new earth. In this view, where Jesus is literally reigning as King on earth in Israel, it has a reinstatement of the animal sacrifices. (I will keep my opinion of this and my reaction to it when first I heard it, to myself.)

This is a relative new view of eschatology but at the same time it has been the predominant and only taught view that any alive today have ever heard, until recently. Recently because  other views, particularly the amillennial/idealist view of Revelation revived along with the supposedly dead Calvinism/Reformed theology.

I myself adhered to this view for a number of years simply because I trusted the teachers to know what they were talking about.

To interject, though amillennialism technically means no millennial, that is not what it actually means when applied to an interpretation of Revelation. It means that the 1000 year reign is not literal but figurative. It represents an undisclosed long period of time. In this view, the time period between Christ's first and second coming.

The support for this can be found within the Bible and in God Himself. There is never an iota of happenstance or circumstance or anything ever being arbitrary with God. That is who He is. Perfect. Two place we see this is in the genealogies and with numbers. They are never arbitrary but contain the perfection and omniscience of God. When He uses a number the number itself has meaning, always, though it may go unnoticed by us. Even in Revelation He is constantly using groups of three and seven.

Here are some of the most common examples of numbers in scripture.

1 is the only divisible # by itself, independent of any other numeral yet composes them all. In the Bible it centers on the unity and primacy of the God family being one. It also represents the unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

2 of a witness (Ex 25:22; Matt 26:60;), a union (gen 2:23), Christ and the church (1 Cor 12), or a division as in two Testaments old and new.

3 of perfection or completeness. It is the first of four spiritually perfect numerals, the others being 7, 10, 12

6 is related to man and human weakness, the evils of the devil and the manifestation of sin.

7 completeness and perfection both physical and spiritual.

12 symbolizes God's power and authority, as well as a perfect governmental foundation. Rev alone has 22 occurences of the number.

1000 according to a principle of prophecy in the Bible is that a prophetic day can equal one or a thousand years in human history. (Ez 4:4-6; Psalm 90:4; 2 Peter 3:8) In prophecy therefore, it could simply expresses an undisclosed by God amount of time in which the prophecy is being or will be fulfilled. God is not bound by time, He is omniscient and transcendent.

To be continued.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seeing as how I wasn't brought up in the churches, my exposure to prevailing eschatological views were minimal at best. My old friend, the man whom the Lord sent me to after He snatched me up from this world, focused upon what most of us recognize as the essentials. This was what was needful for me to learn, and what the Lord promised when He sent me to this man. 

Eschatology didn't feature in the scriptural instruction I received as a student who lived with him and his family for close to 4 years. My brother rightfully discerned that such contentious matters were better left for those who relish endless argumentation and debate. As far as eschatology is concerned, there are indeed essentials present, and these are as follows:

The Son of Man will return in the same manner that He ascended;

The world and the heavens --- which we understand as the universe --- will come to an end when He returns (they both flee before His face);

The Son of God shall resurrect the dead, and judge them seated upon the Great White Throne;

When all that came before is abolished (death being the last), the Lord shall create everything new.

I consider the above as the essentials of eschatology, and all that we need to know about the end of this universe ("the world") which is perishing. 

The book of Revelation is indeed about the revelation of Jesus Christ. It's not the revelation of the beast, fodder for bizarre or novel interpretations, the stuff of movies or weird posters, or the like. However, that is precisely what the book of Revelation has become to so many over the past 200 years or so.

An obsessive fixation upon strange eschatological interpretations has led to what I call "end times mania" taking root in most evangelical churches. Certain individuals have profited handsomely from this end times mania. 

I'm amillenial in my eschatological view, something which took time to develop and grow. In all things the Lord bids me to pay attention to here and now, and that's what concerns me most. We know that Christ returns, yes? That's what matters! 

[Marathoner]

On 4/16/2023 at 5:39 AM, Michael37 said:

Every story needs a conclusion. 

By showing John the terminally engineered nihilistic of this fallen Creation and having him record what he saw, God's honesty is on display, as it has been since the events described in Genesis. This blesses His people as they read what God has given them in preparation for future glory with Christ for eternity.   

Rev 1:1-3  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,  (2)  who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.  (3)  Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
 

Indeed. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not frightened or fearful having studied the book of Revelation. I'm comforted and overjoyed instead.

It's His gift to us.

The Lord's promises to the churches in particular illustrate who we are in Jesus Christ, being joint heirs with Him both now and in the age to come. Now, we are not revealed. In the age to come, we shall be revealed.

No end times mania needed or required. 

[grahampaul]

i love the Word simply presented.so all can understand.

[JedidiahDavidson]

When I approach Revelation, I look very closely at the very first chapter in order to understand the terms and conditions set on the presentation of the vision.

Verses 1 and 2 tell us that the revelation/apocalypse is of Jesus, from God, about what must shortly come to pass, and that John bore witness to the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ by the things he saw. Timelines don't seem particularly important in that opening premise. 

Verse 3 says those who read and keep the words of the prophecy will be blessed because the time was at hand. Time for what?

Verse 6 says that Jesus has made us (includes John the author) as kings and priests unto God the Father. 

Verse 9 has John including himself as a "brother and companion in the tribulation, the kingdom, and patience of Jesus Christ"--yes, the original text has "the tribulation" in the Greek; translations which omit the definite article are in error.

Most eschatological positions overlook these very important statements, instead jumping straight into the Christophany or even to the opening of the Scroll in chapter 5. Amillennialism and Idealism may not be perfect interpretations but they do a fine job of accounting for every line of Scripture with nothing wasted. 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by JedidiahDavidson

[Michael37]

18 minutes ago, JedidiahDavidson said:

Verse 9 has John including himself as a "brother and companion in the tribulation, the kingdom, and patience of Jesus Christ"--yes, the original text has "the tribulation" in the Greek; translations which omit the definite article are in error.

The tribulation of Jesus Christ being the persecution of Him and His followers, not to be confused with the Great Tribulation that results from Divine Judgment.

[JedidiahDavidson]

10 hours ago, Michael37 said:

The tribulation of Jesus Christ being the persecution of Him and His followers, not to be confused with the Great Tribulation that results from Divine Judgment.

If John meant general persecution such as all followers receive, he would not have used the definite article. We know, for example, that John wasn't referring to just any kingdom but to THE Kingdom which Jesus preached by use of the definite article. I know the KJV leaves out the definite article when translating Revelation 1:9 but it is most definitely there. John was referring to THE Tribulation, THE Kingdom, and patience (no definite article) of Jesus Christ. Do with that knowledge what you will. My only point is that the text requires us to acknowledge John as a companion in the tribulation and the kingdom, and those who observe the rule of first mention then infer all subsequent mention of tribulation within the context of chapter 1. 

[enoob57]

I think this can all be resolved rather simply... there exists only two types of tribulation in Scripture that from the world and satan and that from God. That from God exists from the cursing of the world for sin and The wrath that is coming that has not been since the beginning till that time when it comes as it is like no other in all of histories... That which is from satan is bought upon all who follow after God, whom satan hates... The wrath from God like no other time is clearly revealed by Scripture: What is the Great Tribulation? | GotQuestions.org

This wrath has a distinctive of The Wrath of God upon mankind and God promises His people He will not pour it out upon His children 

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (KJV)

[10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.