Hail Mary

[Roymond]

On 5/26/2023 at 7:33 AM, ChristB4us said:

To ask a spirit of a deceased believer that is in Heaven is putting someone in between you & Jesus, the One at that throne of grace that you should be praying to above & by Him, to the Father.

You keep claiming that but there is no difference between a believer here and a believer there; there is one church, not two, and its members are members for the same cause, not different ones.  To make a division in the church is to make a division in Christ.

If asking a saint in heaven is "putting someone in between you and Jesus", so is asking a saint on Earth.  Both the saints in heaven and the saints on Earth have the same 'location':  we are all "in Christ".

[Roymond]

On 5/26/2023 at 7:51 AM, ChristB4us said:

Prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary

Here is one prayer believing it is Mary answering the prayer entitled in red, "Mary, Help those in Need".

In the next prayer listed at that link is "Morning Consecration to Mary" asking her to guard them as property & possession.

There are more at that link which is plainly treating as if Mary as a God that can answer prayers.  Even one dedicated to glorify her name for doing all those signs, healings, and miracles.

Well of course if you avoid official Catholic sites you can find all sorts of things!

At least three popes have admonished Catholics who do this that they are in error, but Catholics are about as stubborn as anyone else so it hasn't helped a lot.

[ChristB4us]

On 5/29/2023 at 4:35 AM, Roymond said:

You keep claiming that but there is no difference between a believer here and a believer there; there is one church, not two, and its members are members for the same cause, not different ones.  To make a division in the church is to make a division in Christ.

 

If asking a saint in heaven is "putting someone in between you and Jesus", so is asking a saint on Earth.  Both the saints in heaven and the saints on Earth have the same 'location':  we are all "in Christ".

The saints in heaven and the saints in the earth are the same in that we are not God to be praying to as Jesus Christ alone answers your prayers.

When you ask someone to pray for you on earth, are you praying to them when you do it?

Do you expect those that are on earth to answer your prayers on earth?

If Mary & the departed patron saints prayed to the Lord Jesus Christ & the Father by Him when they were on earth, why should you follow any other example?

[ChristB4us]

On 5/29/2023 at 4:37 AM, Roymond said:

Well of course if you avoid official Catholic sites you can find all sorts of things!

At least three popes have admonished Catholics who do this that they are in error, but Catholics are about as stubborn as anyone else so it hasn't helped a lot.

That was an official Catholic site, brother.  That is not a site debunking this practice.

Prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary

[Roymond]

On 5/30/2023 at 1:37 PM, ChristB4us said:

The saints in heaven and the saints in the earth are the same in that we are not God to be praying to as Jesus Christ alone answers your prayers.

When you ask someone to pray for you on earth, are you praying to them when you do it?

Technically, yes, because "pray" means "ask", and was used that way for most of the time there's been a recognizable English language.

On 5/30/2023 at 1:37 PM, ChristB4us said:

Do you expect those that are on earth to answer your prayers on earth?

If Mary & the departed patron saints prayed to the Lord Jesus Christ & the Father by Him when they were on earth, why should you follow any other example?

Are you claiming t1hey never asked other Christians to pray for them?  That's quite a claim, and if it were true then you shouldn't be asking other Christians to pray for you, either.

The example to follow is the one that fits what the church is:  undivided, alive in Christ.  And since that applies equally to all saints no matter where they are, it doesn't matter where they are if you ask them to pray for you.

You have this idea that somehow asking saints in heaven to pray for you somehow takes the place of praying to God.  But there's no difference due to where a saint happens to live.  If I'm asking my grandfather to pray for me when he's alive, but then three days later he dies, why should I stop asking him to pray for me?  He's still a Christian, still alive in Christ, still able to pray for me.  And that fits what the church is, the living body of Christ, which is all I need to know.

[farouk]

1 Timothy 2.5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus".

[Roymond]

On 5/30/2023 at 1:39 PM, ChristB4us said:

That was an official Catholic site, brother.  That is not a site debunking this practice.

Prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary

The site has no nihil obstat, no imprimi potest, no imprimatur.  It lists no connection to any element of the Magisterium, not even an endorsement of a bishop.  It has no clergy, neither priest nor deacon, on its staff.  It does not appear on any list of official Catholic lay ministries.  It is not connected to any recognized ecclesial movements or communities, not any confraternities or fraternal orders.  It doesn't even appear in an official list of National or International Catholic organizations.  There is no claim of having the supervision of even a Deacon, let alone a bishop!

It is without any connection with the Vatican at all, and thus is not an official Catholic site in any way.

[Roymond]

6 minutes ago, farouk said:

1 Timothy 2.5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus".

This is not relevant to the question unless you want to forbid public prayers in church and Christians asking each other to pray for them.

[farouk]

6 minutes ago, Roymond said:

This is not relevant to the question unless you want to forbid public prayers in church and Christians asking each other to pray for them.

Oh it is indeed relevant.

If I ask a living brother in Christ to pray for me, this is not the same as invoking a dead person to do the same.

[ChristB4us]

On 6/4/2023 at 12:31 AM, Roymond said:

This is not relevant to the question unless you want to forbid public prayers in church and Christians asking each other to pray for them.

Asking someone on earth to pray for you to God in Heaven is a lot different than you praying to God in Heaven.

When you are praying towards Heaven, pray to God.  Why the round about way when it comes to praying to God?

You should suspect that the only reason the RCC is doing this is to make moral compromises to idolators in Rome as if Jesus is not the only way to God the Father thereby avoiding ending up like Peter & Paul did in Rome.

Did you know that the prophet Mohammud had come across some Mariologists that led him to believe that the Trinity doctrine was God the Father and God the Son, and Mary?

On top of that, the title Queen of Heaven is an abominable offense to God in the past and so why would Mary be honored by that title?  She would be offended.

Jeremiah 7:18The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

So where did that title come from other than from among Roman idolatry?

Go to Jesus Christ at that throne of grace for this reason of Him being our High Priest.  For it is by Him, you can pray to God the Father by.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

3 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.