The God Who Is versus the God most believe in

[Michael37]

23 minutes ago, JohnD said:

"from" (Strong's # 1537) the Father

"through" (Strong's # 1223) Jesus Christ

This is one of the verses where one must be particularly certain about the meaning of the original language (that our English translation alone may not distinguish the meanings). Cross referenced with Isaiah 44:24 (which stipulates that the specific acts of creation were carried out by an individual alone by himself) and cross referenced with John 1:14 (which declares the flesh that the Word became was the only creation of the Father) ← confirmed by Hebrews 10:5 and Hebrews 1:5... we have to dig into the meanings of "from" (epsilon xi) and "through" (delta iota).

epsilon xi

1537 ἐκ, ἐκπερισσῶς, ἐκφωνέω [ek, ex /ek/] prep. A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause;

1223 διά [dia /dee·ah/] prep. A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; TDNT 2:65; TDNTA 149; GK 1328; 647 occurrences; AV translates as “by” 241 times, “through” 88 times, “with” 16 times, “for” 58 times, “for … sake” 47 times, “therefore + 5124” 44 times, “for this cause + 5124” 14 times, “because” 53 times, and translated miscellaneously 86 times. 1 through. 1a of place. 1a1 with. 1a2 in. 1b of time. 1b1 throughout. 1b2 during. 1c of means. 1c1 by. 1c2 by the means of. 2 through. 2a the ground or reason by which something is or is not done. 2a1 by reason of. 2a2 on account of. 2a3 because of for this reason. 2a4 therefore. 2a5 on this account.
 

Cross referenced with John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 44:24 would have to mean that the one in the Godhead who acted in creating all things (God the Word John 1:1-3 / the Son of God Colossians 1:13 / 16) acting on the authority of the Father which Hebrews 1:2 defines. 

Hebrews 1:2 (KJV)
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

The preincarnate Jesus is the one in the Godhead who created all things created in the beginning. And later the Father created the body / humanity of the Son (his only actual creation). Clearly Jesus stated in several places that he acts only under the authority of the Father.

1 Corinthians 8:6 by itself could be interpreted to mean what @BibleWords indicated if it were not for the distinction in the Greek text of of and through... and of Isaiah 44:24 being so specific about not only the individual Creator but John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:13-16 indicating that individual was the preincarnate Jesus only. 

So with the cross references and Greek distinctions we understand the texts to mean:

Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom {who acted] also he {by his authority} made the worlds;

1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom {by whose authority} are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are {who actually created} all things, and we by him.

Not that @BibleWords was attempting to isolate 1 Corinthians 8:6... I simply point out that when we amalgamate the texts of scripture in the overall context of scripture (under the tutelage / guidance of the Holy Spirit of course) we arrive at divine intent: what God means and what is actually true. Others have isolated this same 1 Corinthians 8:6 text to attempt to disprove the Trinity (or couple it with John 17:3) stating in either text there is one God the Father... you the only true God... 

The same could be said about Isaiah 43:10-11 Isaiah 44:8...

Isaiah 43:10–11 (KJV)
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 44:8 (KJV)
...ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

From the amalgamation of scripture texts we realize the texts contain the corporate "me" and "I." That any one of the three indicated by the amalgamation of scripture who are the one God can speak for the one God as if that one God was an individual.

I am reminded of what Supreme Chancellor Palpatine said while being arrested by the Jedi (Windu) who said the Senate would decide his fate... "I AM the SENATE!"

1 Corinthians 8:6 and Hebrews 1:2 taken into consideration, Isaiah 44:24 does appear to be another of these corporate "me" statements... until you factor in John 1:14 and other passages specifying that Jesus is the ONLY Son of God the Father.

John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

That if (and I only say if for the sake of argument) the preincarnate Jesus acted alone by himself in the beginning creating all things created... and the Father's only creation is that of the body / humanity of Jesus... then it all adds up.

Adam (the son of God in Luke 3:38) is the son of God the Word. While Jesus is the Son of God the Father (John 1:14).

The first Adam came from the earth.

The second Adam came from heaven.

See 1 Cor 15.

[JohnD]

4 hours ago, Michael37 said:

The first Adam came from the earth.

The second Adam came from heaven.

See 1 Cor 15.

1 Corinthians 15:45 (KJV)

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

• adam = man
• Adam = the first man  /  the prototype human being
• The Last Adam = the last prototype human being

God the Word (who became Jesus in the incarnation see John 1:1 and John 1:14) is YHVH the LORD who created all things created in the beginning alone by himself (Isaiah 44:24 cross referenced with John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16). He is therefore the God and Father of the first Adam (and the human race):

Luke 3:38 (KJV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Jesus (before he became a man) is the Father of creation.

Colossians 1:16 (KJV)
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

John 1:3 (KJV)
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

 

Jesus is God the Word, Yahweh our redeemer, the lone Creator of all things created in the beginning.

 

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father*, The Prince of Peace.

 

* He is the Father of eternity ← a better way to understand the phrase aby ad... 

 

But he is not his own Father (who created his physical body see Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5 / John 1:14).

 

Even in the venerated Hebrew shma (Deuteronomy 6:4) "Hear oh Israel, YHVH our God YHVH is one..." the oneness is a compound oneness a unity of plurality.

Hence the plural references to the Deity "us" and "our" (Genesis 1:26, Genesis 11:7, Isaiah 6:8 etc. ) . 

 

Only Jesus is the creation / Son of God the Father. And we can be adopted children of the Father through faith in his one and only Son (Romans 8:15, Romans 8:23, Galatians 4:5, Ephesians  1:5).

 

More to your point @Michael37,

 

1 Corinthians 15:45–49 (KJV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

• first adam was made a living soul (body spirit)
• the last adam is the life giving Spirit ("was made" does not appear in the original Hebrew text but was added by translators and is usually italicized to indicate this editing)
• the last adam is the Creator YHVH the LORD (Isaiah 44:24 / Genesis 1:1ff / John 1:3, Colossians 1:16)
• That which was not first (incarnation) is Spirit
• The first is natural (of earth /earthy)
• The second is YHVH the LORD from heaven

This is also the definition of what it means to be created in the image of God.

 

1 Corinthians 15:48

Man was created in the image and form Jesus Christ would be created in... using that human form that the Father would create (Matthew 1) as the template for what Jesus created in Genesis 1.

1 Corinthians 15:49

But as born again believers in Jesus (who rose from the grave) we will also be like him in the resurrection (1 John 3:2).

[JohnD]

We must take care interpreting the scriptures that we do so by the guidance of the Holy Spirit who wrote the Bible through the prophets:

2 Peter 1:20–21 (KJV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

All of scripture is prophetic (having come by the means described in verse 21). Therefore all scripture is not open for any interpretation other than that of the Holy Spirit who inspired them (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

2 Timothy 3:16–17 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 3:16–17 (NIV84)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

[JohnD]

We may think we have the biblical answer, the correct interpretation or understanding but we must be ever aware of the fact that:

Proverbs 14:12 (KJV)
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 16:25 (KJV)
25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

 

[JohnD]

4 minutes ago, JohnD said:

We may think we have the biblical answer, the correct interpretation or understanding but we must be ever aware of the fact that:

Proverbs 14:12 (KJV)
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 16:25 (KJV)
25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

 

The way to authenticate what we believe to be from the Holy Spirit as we are instructed to do (1 John 4:1) 

is by the scriptures (Acts 17:11 / Proverbs 25:2) noting that:

Isaiah 28:9–13 (KJV)
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

[Anne2]

On 5/13/2023 at 3:02 AM, JohnD said:

The mystery of God not only includes the Trinity, but the individuals of the triune God. Most believe they already have a grasp of who and what the Father is: the God of the Old Testament...  that the Father was predominate in the Old Testament and the Son was waiting in the wings (so to speak) until he came as a newborn babe in Bethlehem... 

From what I have read concerning the doctrine of the trinity. It focuses on God's nature, which our finite minds cannot fully understand. But was developed to address heresies of their day. So, it's terms are simply "ways of speaking and thinking" about God's nature is all, not to explain it. For we cannot understand with  a finite understanding in context of finite words.

Also Christology Concerns the incarnation, in the person and work of Christ Jesus (the son). I am not able to discern this distinct theology in this discussion. Maybe I missed it.

So, these things are distinct doctrines, to each other. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Anne2

[JohnD]

8 hours ago, Anne2 said:

From what I have read concerning the doctrine of the trinity. It focuses on God's nature, which our finite minds cannot fully understand. But was developed to address heresies of their day. So, it's terms are simply "ways of speaking and thinking" about God's nature is all, not to explain it. For we cannot understand with  a finite understanding in context of finite words.

Also Christology Concerns the incarnation, in the person and work of Christ Jesus (the son). I am not able to discern this distinct theology in this discussion. Maybe I missed it.

So, these things are distinct doctrines, to each other. 

The dexterity of our bodies (which submit to the will of our brains) does not require us to know anatomy and how it functions... which neuron stimulates which ligament to pull on muscles down the arm to the finger to be able to fret a note on a guitar fret board... or write with a pencil... 

I get what you are saying.

But we can understand the nature of God. Accepting it is what gives us difficulty.

We accept that we were born though we have no memory of it. We accept that our dad is our father and our mom is our mother.  We accept that up is up and down is down. We accept that concrete is hard and wind is permeable. We accept that we are tripartite (three parts: body, soul, spirit according to 1 Thessalonians 5:23). God is Spirit (John 4:24) and there is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) yet three individuals are the one God (John 1:1-2, 1 John 1:1-2, Genesis 1:1-2 with one another at the same time in the beginning).

What takes three parts to make one human being takes three individuals to make one God. Once we accept that simple fact, it's easy to understand comprehend apprehend... all the excuses people make who claim we can't do...

One concept that helped me to grasp the triunity of God is the triunity of the universe (three spatial dimensions coexisting everywhere at the same time) ← without any one of which the universe could not even exist.

[Anne2]

22 hours ago, JohnD said:

The dexterity of our bodies (which submit to the will of our brains) does not require us to know anatomy and how it functions... which neuron stimulates which ligament to pull on muscles down the arm to the finger to be able to fret a note on a guitar fret board... or write with a pencil... 

I get what you are saying.

But we can understand the nature of God. Accepting it is what gives us difficulty.

We accept that we were born though we have no memory of it. We accept that our dad is our father and our mom is our mother.  We accept that up is up and down is down. We accept that concrete is hard and wind is permeable. We accept that we are tripartite (three parts: body, soul, spirit according to 1 Thessalonians 5:23). God is Spirit (John 4:24) and there is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) yet three individuals are the one God (John 1:1-2, 1 John 1:1-2, Genesis 1:1-2 with one another at the same time in the beginning).

What takes three parts to make one human being takes three individuals to make one God. Once we accept that simple fact, it's easy to understand comprehend apprehend... all the excuses people make who claim we can't do...

One concept that helped me to grasp the triunity of God is the triunity of the universe (three spatial dimensions coexisting everywhere at the same time) ← without any one of which the universe could not even exist.

The only issue here concerns the doctrinal terms and their intended use in doctrine. If someone uses them in a personal context than they may have a trinitarian doctrine, but not necessarily the original doctrine. The original doctrine did not attempt to explain it. They did not think that could be done.

There is Gods nature, then there is Christology, the person of the Son incarnated.

What I found helpful in reading Orthodox material on the subject, the relationship between the persons within the Godhead was pretty central to not confusing and confounding the persons. That helped me at least understand why some things were heresy in their view.

[JohnD]

What I found most confusing and -{appearing}- to be contradictory was traditional supposition about the Trinity rather than simply accepting what scripture says. "The Trinity is like... (fill in the blank) " opens he door to confusion and contradiction. Even the late great D. James Kennedy got it wrong subscribing to the "God is not 1 + 1 + 1 but 1 x 1 x 1" error (which is modalism / sabellianism). ← example of 1 x 1 x 1 = 1 is to hold up the same finger three times. It's the same finger.

Giving into the temptation to "God is like..." the closest things I have found which describe similar examples are: 

One family unit (a unity of plurality) same thing with one corporation.

The three spatial dimensions of the one universe.

The make up of a human being except in that we are tripartite (three parts body, soul, spirit) whereas the one God is three full individuals of divine nature.

Again, accepting what scripture teaches is the purest concept of the Triune nature of God. But these examples (though imperfect) don't break down as quickly as do the 1 x 1 x 1, or the parts of an egg (shell, white, yolk), or the tri-point of water (steam, liquid, ice) examples do.

John 1:1-2 God with God in the beginning at the same time

1 John 1:1-2 / Genesis 1:1-2 who God was with in the beginning.

God is one (Deuteronomy 6:4 etc).

[Anne2]

33 minutes ago, JohnD said:

What I found most confusing and -{appearing}- to be contradictory was traditional supposition about the Trinity rather than simply accepting what scripture says. "The Trinity is like... (fill in the blank) " opens he door to confusion and contradiction. Even the late great D. James Kennedy got it wrong subscribing to the "God is not 1 + 1 + 1 but 1 x 1 x 1" error (which is modalism / sabellianism). ← example of 1 x 1 x 1 = 1 is to hold up the same finger three times. It's the same finger.

Sorry John D But only one times "exactly itself" equals one. Essence  one (the finger. Persons three (held up three times).

1+1+1 is three different/ or distinct ones. What is one, and what is three?

The purpose and intent of the doctrine is what is overlooked here.

It is like finding an obsolete piece of Machinery to perform a task, the equipment was not intended for. Then critiquing how poor or even downright useless the thing is. We can't put our own meaning into their terms, they just do not work.

It is a divine mystery, and as such will remain so. But it's use was for a specific task, which functioned in it's purpose.

Hope that makes sense.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Anne2