The God Who Is versus the God most believe in

[JohnD]

It is abundantly clear that there is only one true God, though there are many so-called gods:

1 Corinthians 8:5–6 (KJV)
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Polygamists (like the LDS cult) misuse this passage emphasizing it this way:

1 Corinthians 8:5–6 (KJV)
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

This they claim is a biblical statement of fact that there ARE many gods and many lords. But that only TO US is there one God...

Human language is such an ambiguous thing... and people's individual understanding of it all the more confusing. This is why the Decalogue (10 Commandments) had to be expounded upon with so much biblical text (70 books in fact, once you properly count the Psalms).

The book of Psalms is the longest book of the Bible, with 150 “chapters”—more properly called “psalms” or “songs.” Psalms is divided into five books:

• Book 1: Psalms 1—41
• Book 2: Psalms 42—72
• Book 3: Psalms 73—89
• Book 4: Psalms 90—106
• Book 5: Psalms 107—150

70 books of the Bible.

Because people tend to hone in on a verse or two to build a dogmatic doctrine that is not true. In the 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 text, simply placing the emphasis on one portion of the text seems to most as it is stating that there are legitimately more than one God. So the LORD goes into the subject repeatedly throughout scripture to reveal there is only one true God:

Deuteronomy 32:39 (KJV)
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 43:10–11 (KJV)

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

 

Isaiah 44:8 (KJV)

8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 46:9–10 (KJV)

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 

These passages non-Trinitarian cultists (like Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostals, Apostolic, Jehovah's Witness, etc.) love to quote to try to debunk what the Bible clearly teaches about the nature of God:

 

John 1:1–2 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

 

The Christadelphian cult came up with a deceptive mistranslation of this text (who the Jehovah's Witnesses cult subscribed to), claiming that the original Greek text the omission of the article (ho) before God in the part of verse 1 ("and the Word was God") renders the Word a lesser god or an angel. The truth about the absence of an article at that point is to prove that the Word is the same God as the God the Word was with. It's called in description of the Greek grammar the noun-kai-noun construct (distinction within a compound plurality).  So God the Word was with the same God as himself.

 

To determine who all God the Word was with, we cross reference the same point in history (the beginning):

 

1 John 1:1–2 (KJV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

 

More and more pieces to the puzzle are added. John 1:1 teaches that the preincarnate Jesus (God the Word became flesh and dwelt among us see John 1:14) is not just a power of God as though he were just God's ability to speak and to call into existence that which did not exist before... but he is as much God as the Father (1 John 1:2) in that he is eternal life.

 

And to conclude who all God was with in the beginning:

 

Genesis 1:1–2 (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

So the texts that the cultists misuse are rather God emphasizing that there is only one God and that there is no other God (though there be things, people that are falsely called gods or worshiped as gods). And that any one of the three individuals who are the one God can speak for the Godhead... "I am God there is no other..." etc.

[JohnD]

The mystery of God not only includes the Trinity, but the individuals of the triune God. Most believe they already have a grasp of who and what the Father is: the God of the Old Testament...  that the Father was predominate in the Old Testament and the Son was waiting in the wings (so to speak) until he came as a newborn babe in Bethlehem... 

But, all three individuals in the Godhead are the great mystery of scripture.

Matthew 11:27 (KJV)
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 14:17 (KJV)
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jesus is Yahweh Adonai in the Old Testament.

John 8:58 (KJV)
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:14–15 (KJV)
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

The Father was more of a mystery than Jesus. The Spirit of God got more mention in the Old Testament than the Father. Now that we know who Yahweh is. 

Footnote: YHVH (Yahweh) often translated "the LORD" is defined as that which is eternal, existing with no beginning or end because they exists with no beginning or end. But this same eternality applied to all three who are the one God. So Yahweh (the LORD) is a name / description that applies to each. Think of it like a surname. And the way you determine which individual in the Godhead the name Yahweh applies to in a given text is by the context of that text. For example:

Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD (Yahweh), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD (Yahweh) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

This is the preincarnate Jesus who is our redeemer, and who is the Creator of all things according to John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16. Hebrews 1:2 points out that the one in the Godhead who created all things was the Son. And in the Isaiah 44:24 we read (twice) that Jesus created all things "by myself." Reminder: the Father was there (1 John 1:1-2) and the Spirit was there (Genesis 1:1-2) but the preincarnate Jesus acted "alone" in creation in the beginning.

[JohnD]

The only thing scripture records that the Father created is the body of the Son.

John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 10:5 (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Some believe / interpret this to only be a reference to begetting (procreation) since Jesus was born. To which I suggest (given John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, and Isaiah 44:24 proving Jesus was the lone Creator in the beginning) they would be hard pressed to find a text stating that the Father created anything else.

There might be an attempt to say the sonship of Jesus is a uniqueness / supremacy preeminence since in Luke 3:38 it is stated that Adam is the son of God. But now we know who did the creating back in those days we know that Adam was the son of God the Word. While Jesus is the Son of God the Father. We can also translate Genesis 1:1 as  In the beginning God the Word (Jesus) created the heavens and the earth." 

[FJK]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

1 Corinthians 8:5–6

A thought that popped into my mind while reading these versus, a sort of play on words but one I find helps me understand things:

"God created Man, then man created god."

What we want is what we know we can't have, what is not ours to have, so we create a false god that will let us have it and lessen ourselves from what we were created to be when we do.

[JohnD]

14 hours ago, FJK said:

A thought that popped into my mind while reading these versus, a sort of play on words but one I find helps me understand things:

"God created Man, then man created god."

What we want is what we know we can't have, what is not ours to have, so we create a false god that will let us have it and lessen ourselves from what we were created to be when we do.

Reminds me of an old Jethro Tull album cover... "In the beginning man created god..."

[JohnD]

Proof that the Eternal Son doctrine is false...

While it is true that Jesus is the ONLY Son of God the Father, and that he (Jesus) is eternal God (the Word), he is not the eternal Son. Nor is God the Father the eternal Father. Observe:

Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

"This day" establishes a point in time and eternity that something begins ( rather than "from everlasting" or "from eternity past" ). Prior to that point, neither the sonship or the fatherhood applied to either of them.

Jesus was not the Son until the incarnation. "he shall be to me a Son"

Nor was his Father the Father of anything until the incarnation. "I will be to him a Father"

Prior to the incarnation, the Middle Person in the the Trinity (God the Word who became Jesus in the incarnation) was the Father of creation (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 44:24). Observe:

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

This verse in Isaiah stating Jesus is the everlasting Father has puzzled believers for centuries perhaps even millennia. It is not stating that Jesus is God the Father (his Father in the incarnation ) but that he (God the Word) is a Father: the Creator of eternity and creation. 

Note the specificity (distinguishing all created things from the only uncreated thing: God which existed from all eternity):

John 1:3 (KJV)
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:16 (KJV)
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

God is not created. But all things that were created were created in the beginning by God the Word alone by himself:

 

Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Brother!

Im running out of time here,have to get ready for church so I'll not be able to say much at this point,love the Word Study ...don't know about the last post,perhaps too much thought regarding Everlasting Father & Jesus being ",a Father'- could just be your wording that doesn't quite sit well with me? Seems too much separation of Father,Son,Holy Spirit - after all,ONE GOD....know what I mean?

I'm not so sure that the 3 distinct persons of the GodHead Triune could really be described prior to Jesus birth as a human well enough because our finite minds can't really begin to imagine HIM/THEM...maybe its sort of like us, physical,spiritual and will/emotion.....can you imagine dividing some parts your state of being .....I can't imagine my thoughts which I communicate through speech manifesting into a physical being,yet it's still ME,my thoughts,my words?????

Way too deep for me to think about,lol ....But yes,God IS as a Father to His Word that was Made Flesh--- But I think He Was FATHER the moment He Created Adam and is Everlasting Father as Was Jesus( the Word) from the Beginning of Creation and Forever and Evermore -I see no Separation between God the Son or God the Father in the Heavens & the Eternal Realm... 

Takes too much thought,speculatory thought...I don't really need to know "how"..I am Overjoyed to Know Him-Father,Son ,Holy Spirit❤️My Father,my Friend,my Brother,my Teacher,my Savior,my Creator,my Comforter,my All in All🤗HALLELUYAH!

 

[FJK]

55 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Seems too much separation of Father,Son,Holy Spirit - after all,ONE GOD....know what I mean?

Father, Son, Holy Spirit, 3 in 1 and 1 in 3.

3 is a prime number, it has two factors, 1 and 3.

[JimmyB]

1 hour ago, FJK said:

Father, Son, Holy Spirit, 3 in 1 and 1 in 3.

3 is a prime number, it has two factors, 1 and 3.

It is also the third from zero in the whole number sequence.  What is you point?

[JohnD]

4 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Brother!

Im running out of time here,have to get ready for church so I'll not be able to say much at this point,love the Word Study ...don't know about the last post,perhaps too much thought regarding Everlasting Father & Jesus being ",a Father'- could just be your wording that doesn't quite sit well with me? Seems too much separation of Father,Son,Holy Spirit - after all,ONE GOD....know what I mean?

I'm not so sure that the 3 distinct persons of the GodHead Triune could really be described prior to Jesus birth as a human well enough because our finite minds can't really begin to imagine HIM/THEM...maybe its sort of like us, physical,spiritual and will/emotion.....can you imagine dividing some parts your state of being .....I can't imagine my thoughts which I communicate through speech manifesting into a physical being,yet it's still ME,my thoughts,my words?????

Way too deep for me to think about,lol ....But yes,God IS as a Father to His Word that was Made Flesh--- But I think He Was FATHER the moment He Created Adam and is Everlasting Father as Was Jesus( the Word) from the Beginning of Creation and Forever and Evermore -I see no Separation between God the Son or God the Father in the Heavens & the Eternal Realm... 

Takes too much thought,speculatory thought...I don't really need to know "how"..I am Overjoyed to Know Him-Father,Son ,Holy Spirit❤️My Father,my Friend,my Brother,my Teacher,my Savior,my Creator,my Comforter,my All in All🤗HALLELUYAH!

 

Thank you for your highly valued input, Sister!

I believe I have been led by the Holy Spirit in the conclusions arrived at. But I am always open to biblical correction.

The distinction of persons (individuals) in the Godhead before the incarnation of Jesus is simple a matter of cross referencing John 1:1-2 with 1 John 1:1-2, and Genesis 1:1-2 where it is clearly biblical that all three were together with each other in the beginning.

Jesus is Yahweh (preincarnate) the Lone Creator of all things created in the beginning (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 44:24). The coming Prince whose origins are from everlasting (Micah 5:2). 

I have also found that what is most confusing about the Triune God is the terms we use to describe / name each...

Father

Son

Holy Spirit

For though they be distinct individuals in the one God, each is Spirit, each is Holy, yet not all three are "the Holy Spirit."

And each is the Father of something or someone. The Father of Jesus is just that the Father of the incarnation (Creator of the body of Jesus). Jesus is the Creator of all creation prior to this, the Father of creation. The Holy Spirit is the revealer of truth and actual Author of the scriptures thus he is the Father of scripture. But not all three are "the Father."

To avoid this shortfall of human communication and limited human understanding, I learned to revert back to the clinical (which I must draw up a chart for someday soon).

The one God consists of three individuals who are the one God:

God individual A

God individual B

God individual C

(I use letter rather than numbers to show the perfect equality of each).

God individual A is the one we call the Heavenly Father (of Jesus's body). The one who by divine arrangement is in ultimate authority of all.

For this reason, I refer to him as God the Authority

God individual B God the Word (who became Jesus in the incarnation, Lone Creator of all things created in the beginning).

God the Word is sufficient to refer to him in this clinical analysis.  

God individual C the Author if the written Word of God / Guide to all truth.

For this reason I refer to him as God the Author.

With these distinctions we can chart each of the three according to biblical references to each and biblical offices each uniquely hold (which we can list in columns under each). 

God the Authority                                 God the Word                               God the Author