The Revelation of the Latter Days: The New Jerusalem and The Rapture before the end of year 2028

[The Light]

On 6/16/2023 at 4:48 PM, seeking the lost said:

I just have a simple view that is formed with fear of the Lord.  I take seriously the warning not to add to The book.  I do find it interesting that you find so many resurrections and raptures.  Do all of these resurrections have raptures?

I have added nothing. There is a difference between understanding what is written and adding something. Here is another rapture BTW. 

Revelation 14

 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

These 144,000 are the first fruits of the second harvest. 

On 6/16/2023 at 4:48 PM, seeking the lost said:

The words of Jesus have some influence on my understanding.  John 6: 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.  The last day fits the resurrection listed as the rest of the dead.  I find this definition in 2 Peter 3: 

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.  Tell me this is not the last day.

Jesus taught that the tares are taken out first.

The unrighteous are wiped out first.  Malichi 4: 1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

It's not that i don't believe in a pretribulation rapture I just do not believe in a pre-resurrection rapture.

I believe that the dead in Christ rise first. Then after that He will return for the alive that remain. After that He will return for the 144,000 first fruits, after that He will return for the harvest that is the result of the first fruits at the 6th seal. 

So, that should prove what you are saying is wrong. It does not appear that you understand these things. You see them but you just block it out of your mind and play what you think is the trump card that there is not a rapture until the end.

So what do you do with the 2 witnesses that are killed and rise from the dead. Remember, that can't happen until the end right?

Revelation 11

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

So here is a resurrection and rapture that happens. Do you skip this and play your nonexistent trump card that is only blinding you from seeing the truth?

Or will you accept the written Word of God?

[The Light]

On 6/16/2023 at 9:30 AM, JoeCanada said:

Do you have any proof that the early church fathers taught a pretrib rapture?

Let's say in the first 300 or 400 years after the apostles?

I'm interested.

Joe, Here is video someone sent me and it seems to apply to this discussion. Watch the 1st 5 minutes as this lays out what happened.

Rapture

[NConly]

question

Hosea 5:15

I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

This does not seem likely in view of this new bill

Proposed legislation would outlaw talk about Jesus in Israel | Daniel Cohen

 

[seeking the lost]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

I believe that the dead in Christ rise first. Then after that He will return for the alive that remain. After that He will return for the 144,000 first fruits, after that He will return for the harvest that is the result of the first fruits at the 6th seal. 

So, that should prove what you are saying is wrong. It does not appear that you understand these things. You see them but you just block it out of your mind and play what you think is the trump card that there is not a rapture until the end.

So what do you do with the 2 witnesses that are killed and rise from the dead. Remember, that can't happen until the end right?

I think John and Jesus were aware of when resurrections occur.  They are aware of the two witnesses but yet the record is clear the first resurrection takes place at the beginning of the Millenium.  You may disagree with my understanding but I am only relating the text as written.  The dead in Christ rise on the last day which coincides with the rest of the dead resurrection.  

Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

These two resurrections are unalterable resurrections.  They should not be moved in time or content.

[The Light]

46 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

I think John and Jesus were aware of when resurrections occur.  They are aware of the two witnesses but yet the record is clear the first resurrection takes place at the beginning of the Millenium.  You may disagree with my understanding but I am only relating the text as written.  The dead in Christ rise on the last day which coincides with the rest of the dead resurrection.  

The dead in Christ do not rise on the last day. They are raised before the seals are opened.

46 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

These two resurrections are unalterable resurrections.  They should not be moved in time or content.

Like I said, you think you have a trump card in the scripture, but I just showed you that there is a resurrection of the two witnesses. So how can the first resurrection be when you claim? Maybe I'm missing something.

And what about the people that were raised when Jesus was raised from the dead. Then after Jesus ascended to heaven we have Tabitha raised from the dead. 

Acts 9

36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.

37 And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.

38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.

39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.

40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

Are you going to entertain the truth of the Word of God and realize that the first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous.

I have produced multiple scriptures that show what you claim is incorrect. It seems that you want to take away for the Word of God and ignore scriptures that prove your claim is incorrect.

 

 

[seeking the lost]

14 hours ago, The Light said:

The dead in Christ do not rise on the last day. They are raised before the seals are opened.

I do believe that Jesus must have got it wrong.  He said, "38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."  (John 6)

There are many people raised from the dead from the beginning of time until now.  Jesus told us to heal the sick, cast out devils, and raise the dead.  Most of these are raised to life and then die again.  These cases do not include an ascension or a rapture.

Everyone will support views with some text or reasoning.  The truth can only be known by accepting the text as written.  Be careful of seeing what you want to see.

 

[Montana Marv]

5 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

I do believe that Jesus must have got it wrong.  He said, "38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."  (John 6)

There are many people raised from the dead from the beginning of time until now.  Jesus told us to heal the sick, cast out devils, and raise the dead.  Most of these are raised to life and then die again.  These cases do not include an ascension or a rapture.

Everyone will support views with some text or reasoning.  The truth can only be known by accepting the text as written.  Be careful of seeing what you want to see.

Which On the Last Day do refer to.  In 2 Thes. some in the church there who were under severe persecution thought they had missed the "Day of the Lord".  What were these individuals missing. The Rapture cannot happen on what you refer as the last day.  The timing of this Harpozo is not found in Scripture, so it cannot be on your definition of the last day.  Jesus Christ himself said that only the Father knows when the Bridegroom will come.  If you say Jesus Christ knows when the Harpozo will happen, then something is amiss. because you are trying to put a date or tie the Harpozo to an event.

The Bride of Christ will be competed on the last day, of its completion. (Only the Father Knows)

The Second Coming will be happen on the last day; which follows the 70th Week.

Other Righteous will arise on the last day, pre 1000 years.

Other Righteous will arise and or be transformed on the last day, post 1000 years. 

Those multitudes who are as the sand on the seashore in Rev 20:7-9, which did follow Satan will be consumed.. 

These survivors and their offspring from those who came out from the 70th Week will repopulate the earth.  These will/must come year after year on the Feast of Tabernacles to worship the Lord God Almighty.  These individuals and nations are some of those who will be ruled with a rod of iron.  Those from every Nation, Language, Tribe, and People.  The Just of these will be transformed following the 1000 years and enter into the Resurrection for the Just.

All the Just and Righteous from all generations enter into the Resurrection for the Just or First Resurrection

When there is a conflict of Scripture (All Scripture is True); then the times and events are not as one sees.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[truth7t7]

3 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Which On the Last Day do refer to.  In 2 Thes. some in the church there who were under severe persecution thought they had missed the "Day of the Lord".  What were these individuals missing. The Rapture cannot happen on what you refer as the last day.  The timing of this Harpozo is not found in Scripture, so it cannot be on your definition of the last day.  Jesus Christ himself said that only the Father knows when the Bridegroom will come.  If you say Jesus Christ knows when the Harpozo will happen, then something is amiss. because you are trying to put a date or tie the Harpozo to an event.

The Bride of Christ will be competed on the last day, of its completion. (Only the Father Knows)

The Second Coming will be happen on the last day; which follows the 70th Week.

Other Righteous will arise on the last day, pre 1000 years.

Other Righteous will arise and or be transformed on the last day, post 1000 years. 

Those multitudes who are as the sand on the seashore in Rev 20:7-9, which did follow Satan will be consumed.. 

These survivors and their offspring from those who came out from the 70th Week will repopulate the earth.  These will/must come year after year on the Feast of Tabernacles to worship the Lord God Almighty.  These individuals and nations are some of those who will be ruled with a rod of iron.  Those from every Nation, Language, Tribe, and People.  The Just of these will be transformed following the 1000 years and enter into the Resurrection for the Just.

All the Just and Righteous from all generations enter into the Resurrection for the Just or First Resurrection

When there is a conflict of Scripture (All Scripture is True); then the times and events are not as one sees.

In Christ

Montana Marv

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life

2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[Montana Marv]

22 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

These verses are for those of Israel (everyone which seeth the Son, and believes in Him, may have everlasting life).  Compare with John 20:29 - Then Jesus told him (Thomas); Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen me, and yet have believed.  Nothing in Scripture as to when these individuals are raise up.  This includes over 99.99 percent of the Bride of Christ.

37 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

This is when Christ hands the keys over to the Father after the GWTJ.  When Death is swallowed up in Victory.  Again another last day.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[truth7t7]

8 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

These verses are for those of Israel (everyone which seeth the Son, and believes in Him, may have everlasting life). 

John 6:39-40 represents all of mankind, from the time Jesus walked the earth until this present time

You will closely note that the scripture below is in perfect agreement, at the future coming of  Jesus Christ the resurrection takes place, (Then Cometh The End)

Marv you don't want to see (The End) at the return of Jesus Christ as scripture teaches below "Why"?

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.