Who's who of Revelation 12

[douggg]

3 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Let's try things from another angle @douggg. Here are the verses immediately after the dragon is cast out (10-11), which says:

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, the one who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their soul-life even  unto death." 

This is referring to the man-child, is it not?  So who are these pronouns (they, their, our) all referring to?

First, it is important to keep in mind that Revelation 12 is the wonder, the vision that is seen, in the third heaven, not only by John, but also by the souls of Christians who had died and were there as well - including Jews who had become Christians.

And that vision portrays historic (verses 1-5) and end times (verses 6-17) events.

----------------------

Yes, the Lamb is Jesus, the man-child.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

our - all in the third heaven, at the time of the Revelation, including the souls of some Jewish believers

his - God's

them, their, they - the Jews, who up to that time were unbelievers in Jesus, but had become believers

him - the devil, Satan, that old serpent

---------------------------------

Revelation 12:6 - is end times, the first half of the 7 years, the testimony time of the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3, the 1260 days.

Revelation 12:14 - is end times, the second half of the 7 years, that Satan will have left (before being made a terror no more at Jesus's Return), the time/times/half time.

----------------------------------

The meaning of the crowns/no crowns on the great red dragon in Revelation 12....

The seven heads have crowns - king 7 of Revelation 17:10 has come to power at the beginning of the seven years, completing the prophecy of the seven kings.

The ten horns do not have crowns, because they rule with the beast king, i.e. king 7 after he becomes mortally wounded but healed in Revelation 13 with 42 months left in the 7 years.

The the ten horns do not have crowns until Revelation 13, when they do have crowns in that chapter.

Below is my comparison chart of the crowns/no crowns and the time stamps of the three

chapters containing the 7 heads and 10 horns.

 

    Revelation 17 - timestamp status - first century

    seven heads - no crowns (end times completion)

    ten horns - no crowns   (end times completion)

   

    Revelation 12 - timestamp status - end times, the 7 years before Jesus returns.

    seven heads - crowns  (seven kings completion)

    ten horns - no crowns 

   

    Revelation 13 - timestamp status - end times, 42 months before Jesus returns

    seven heads - no crowns.    one head mortally wounded but healed - the beast king.

    ten horns - crowns (to rule with the beast king).

 

.

Edited June 18, 2023 by douggg

[Vine Abider]

11 hours ago, douggg said:

First, it is important to keep in mind that Revelation 12 is the wonder, the vision that is seen, in the third heaven, not only by John, but also by the souls of Christians who had died and were there as well - including Jews who had become Christians.

And that vision portrays historic (verses 1-5) and end times (verses 6-17) events.

----------------------

Yes, the Lamb is Jesus, the man-child.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

our - all in the third heaven, at the time of the Revelation, including the souls of some Jewish believers

his - God's

them, their, they - the Jews, who up to that time were unbelievers in Jesus, but had become believers

him - the devil, Satan, that old serpent

---------------------------------

Revelation 12:6 - is end times, the first half of the 7 years, the testimony time of the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3, the 1260 days.

Revelation 12:14 - is end times, the second half of the 7 years, that Satan will have left (before being made a terror no more at Jesus's Return), the time/times/half time.

----------------------------------

The meaning of the crowns/no crowns on the great red dragon in Revelation 12....

The seven heads have crowns - king 7 of Revelation 17:10 has come to power at the beginning of the seven years, completing the prophecy of the seven kings.

The ten horns do not have crowns, because they rule with the beast king, i.e. king 7 after he becomes mortally wounded but healed in Revelation 13 with 42 months left in the 7 years.

The the ten horns do not have crowns until Revelation 13, when they do have crowns in that chapter.

Below is my comparison chart of the crowns/no crowns and the time stamps of the three

chapters containing the 7 heads and 10 horns.

 

    Revelation 17 - timestamp status - first century

    seven heads - no crowns (end times completion)

    ten horns - no crowns   (end times completion)

   

    Revelation 12 - timestamp status - end times, the 7 years before Jesus returns.

    seven heads - crowns  (seven kings completion)

    ten horns - no crowns 

   

    Revelation 13 - timestamp status - end times, 42 months before Jesus returns

    seven heads - no crowns.    one head mortally wounded but healed - the beast king.

    ten horns - crowns (to rule with the beast king).

 

.

That looks a little complicated . . . 

I actually agree with you that the man-child is Christ, but I believe it is Christ in His overcomers.  "They overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb" - because they let Christ live in and through them.

Did you look at the part of the @AdHoc post that addresses why the man-child is not Jesus Himself?  Here's what he had:

For the Man-Child to be our Lord Jesus, scripture has to be ignored.

Our Lord Jesus was not born to a "sign". Mary was real
Our Lord Jesus was not was not raptured at birth
Our Lord Jesus was firstborn to Mary. The Woman in Revelation 12 has other seed before the Man-Child because "they remain"
Our Lord Jesus was not raptured to escape the Dragon. He faced him fully from Gethsemane onward
Our Lord Jesus did not displace Satan when He ascended. Satan is still the "prince of the power of the air"

Please consider each of these points of conflict above.  There are actually more, including that if the man-child was Jesus, it would not say, "They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb." 

I know it is a strong traditional view that Jesus is the man-child, but there are too many conflicting points that says otherwise.

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Our Lord Jesus was not born to a "sign". Mary was real
Our Lord Jesus was not was not raptured at birth

Again, the wonder, the vision that John saw when he was in the third heaven, portrayed historic (verses 1-5) and end times (verses 6-17) events.

It does not say that Jesus was raptured at birth.   It is identifying the man-child as Jesus from Satan's attempt through Herod to kill Jesus at birth.   Jesus, who when he left this world was taken up a cloud, in Acts 1 to heaven.

kjv

Acts 1:

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Our Lord Jesus was not born to a "sign". Mary was real

The text says wonder, not sign.   The woman is Israel going back to the dream Joseph.  I have already gone over that.

Some people want to make "wonder" a sign - because they want to apply positions of the stars when connected make "so-called" signs like the big dipper, to postulate a "sign" of events people saw from earth.

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I know it is a strong traditional view that Jesus is the man-child, but there are too many conflicting points that says otherwise.

No, there are not valid conflicting points, when a person understands why there are crowns on the seven heads of the dragon and no crowns on the ten horns of the dragon.

I suggest that you look at that crowns/no crowns table, included in my post, and digest it.

I have over 50 years of studying the end times prophecies and Revelation, btw.  Not boasting, just providing information.

One of the things I did not include in my post is that in Revelation 12:12... is the  third of the three trumpet woes first mentioned in Revelation 8:13 is found in the part highlighted in red... which is the devil come down having great wrath.    Which the third woe lasts the time/times/half time, Satan will have left - that encompasses the timesframes of the other two woes found in Revelation 9.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

--------------------------------

Vine, what I suggest is that you start developing a timeline chart of end-time events in Revelation 6-19... as a whole, and not just look at the chapters as fragmented bits and pieces, isolated from one another.

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by douggg

[douggg]

@Vine Abider

Here is a timeline chart I made of the seven seals that also includes the third woe of Revelation 12:12 in the upper right hand corner.

Look closely to see the little horn > (becomes) the Antichrist > (becomes) the revealed man of sin> (becomes) the beast king.

 

 

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

It does not say that Jesus was raptured at birth.   It is identifying the man-child as Jesus from Satan's attempt through Herod to kill Jesus at birth.   Jesus, who when he left this world was taken up a cloud, in Acts 1 to heaven.

kjv

It would seem to me that the language of Revelation 12 is plain. First though, lets get Strong's on "semeion".

Greek Word: σημεῖον
Transliteration: sēmeion
Phonetic Pronunciation: say-mi’-on
Root: from a presumed derivative of the base of <G4591>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 7:200,1015
Part of Speech: n n
Vine’s Words: Miracle, Sign, Token

Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
    sign 50
    miracle 23
    wonder 3
    token 1
    [Total Count: 77]

Strong, J. (2020). σημεῖον. Strong’s Talking Greek and Hebrew Dictionary. WORDsearch.

Here is Vine;

2. semeion (σημει̂ον, 4592), “a sign, mark, token” (akin to semaino, “to give a sign”; sema, “a sign”), is used of “miracles” and wonders as signs of divine authority; it is translated “miracles” in the RV and KJV of Luke 23:8; Acts 4:16, 22; most usually it is given its more appropriate meaning “sign,” “signs,”

Vine continues:

SIGN
1. semeion (σημει̂ον, 4592), “a sign, mark, indication, token,” is used (a) of that which distinguished a person or thing from others, e.g., Matt. 26:48; Luke 2:12; Rom. 4:11; 2 Cor. 12:12 (1st part); 2 Thess. 3:17, “token,” i.e., his autograph attesting the authenticity of his letters; (b) of a “sign” as a warning or admonition, e.g.,

Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W., Jr. (1996). Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Vol. 2, p. 575). Nashville, TN: T. Nelson.

Your understanding of it does not appear in the commentary of two very respected authorities.

Here is the text which we discuss.

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

There is nothing of Herod in the text. There is nothing historical. The Chapter starts with "AND" - a conjunction. The conjunction "and" is cumulative, copulative and sequential. That makes Chapter 12 a continuation of 11 and joined to it. The whole section deals with the 1260 days that Satan has left - how the 1260 days pertain to Jerusalem and the Overcoming Christian. It is written in the past tense because John saw the sign and the reports on it. Nearly all prophecy, when shown what is to come, is reported in the past tense.

If you judge that the sign is Israel, the very first thing anyone does is insert Israel at every mention of the woman. This is normal practice in language and mathematics. If our Lord is called the Lamb, we immediately observe a lambs behavior when threatened with death.

Language is given by God to transmit ideas. the following ideas are transmitted in the text above.
1. The Woman is heavenly. Israel is not.
2. Even if you force the meaning to be "wonder", Israel is no wonder except their disobedience and unbelief in the face of so much proof.
3. Interpreting scripture with scripture, a garment is one's works (Rev.19:7-8). Israel is naked, having made a pact with the Beast for access to the Holy of Holies - in the words of the scriptures "An abomination". In parable the RIGHTEOUS shine forth as the sun (Matt.13:43).
4. Israel has no crown. the Kingdom is ripped from her by our Lord Jesus in Matthew 21:43. Far from ruling, they are ruled by the 12 Apostles - Christians.
5. "being with child" conveys pregnancy. The Woman already has seed for "they REMAIN" after the Man-Child is raptured. Jesus was a first-born (i) of creation, (ii) of the dead, and (iii) the New Creation.
6. The Woman is seen in heaven by John, but she gives birth on earth. Verse 5 above implies a rapture after birth to avoid the "devouring" Dragon. It clearly states "AS SOON AS IT WAS BORN!"

There is no great conversion of Israel after the Two Witnesses testify. There is only rejoicing at their death. Secondly, they did not preach the gospel for they drew fire upon their enemies - the exact opposite of a "ministry of reconciliation". the result of their rapture was not to call on the name of Jesus in faith, but to give glory to God in fear. The fear came from an earthquake and seven thousand deaths before their eyes. This is not an Israelite conversion to Jesus. Romans 11 says that Israel's unbelief remain till the time of the Gentiles is over.

Although @Vine Abider has repeatedly pointed out lists of objections from the plain language, you have not dealt with each one. He showed the plurality of the Man-Child and you ignored it. There is NO evidence that the Man-Child is Jesus. That is an assumption.

I respect your 50 years of study and I'm sure you have much to contribute. Why not start from scratch with references to scriptures, and deal with all the objections in this thread and in the one from which the lists came.

 

[douggg]

42 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

There is nothing of Herod in the text. There is nothing historical. The Chapter starts with "AND" - a conjunction. The conjunction "and" is cumulative, copulative and sequential. That makes Chapter 12 a continuation of 11 and joined to it.

Yes, Revelation 12 is a continuation of Revelation 11.

If you take a look at Revelation 11:14-15, the third woe signified by the seventh angel, comes quickly (as in about to be shown what it is).     And in Revelation 12:12 we see that the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is Satan cast down to earth having great wrath.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

There is no great conversion of Israel after the Two Witnesses testify. There is only rejoicing at their death. Secondly, they did not preach the gospel for they drew fire upon their enemies - the exact opposite of a "ministry of reconciliation". the result of their rapture was not to call on the name of Jesus in faith, but to give glory to God in fear. The fear came from an earthquake and seven thousand deaths before their eyes. This is not an Israelite conversion to Jesus. Romans 11 says that Israel's unbelief remain till the time of the Gentiles is over.

There is no reason for the two witnesses to be prophesying in Jerusalem, if it were not to benefit the Jews.   The two witnesses defend themselves when anyone tries to hurt them,  Revelation 11:5.

The witnesses are not "raptured", they will called up to heaven as everyone watches, Revelation 11:11-12.  

Romans 11:25 does not say "till the time of the Gentiles is over" but  "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in"  i.e. the Jews will not become believers until the church age is over signified by the rapture/resurrection event.

The Jews coming to believe in Jesus is not in Revelation 11, but in Revelation 12:10 and as the woman who finds protection in the wilderness Revelation 12:14, the mountains outside of Jerusalem.   

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Which Jesus spoke for the Jews to do in Matthew 24:15-20, telling them to pray that their flight will not be in the winter, neither on the sabbath day - the sabbath observance for Jews limits the distance they are allowed to travel on the sabbath in order to keep the commandments of God.

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, douggg said:

There is no reason for the two witnesses to be prophesying in Jerusalem, if it were not to benefit the Jews.   The two witnesses defend themselves when anyone tries to hurt them,  Revelation 11:5.

It is the fond wish of many, including Paul the Apostle, that Israel would turn and believe. And one feels it keenly when we see how much God loved them. Because of this emotion, various doctrines of Israel being "saved" were sought after over the last centuries. The truth of the matter lies elsewhere. Israel faced two grand "salvations" when our Lord Jesus was among them. The first is regulated by the Covenant of Promise with Abraham.

Between Chapter 12 and Chapter 22 of Genesis, God made promises to Abraham, and in an inopportune moment when Abraham questioned God's veracity on an heir, God turned it into a Covenant (Gen.15). In these Chapters I count 15 promises. I might have misses one or two, but the fact is that Israel's NATIONAL future is regulated by the Covenant of Promise.

430 years later Israel enters into a second Covenant with Jehovah at Sinai. Israel's side is to keep about 615 laws and ordinances. God's side was to protect their borders and bless the Israelite with fertility, long life and prosperity. However, the penalties found in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 guaranteed their ejection from their Land and dispersion among the Nations in fear and chastisement.

IN NEITHER OF THESE COVENANTS IS THE  BELIEF IN A MESSIAH A CNDITION OF CONTINUED PROSPERITY AND/OR RESTORATION. In Deuteronomy 18:15-19 the Messiah is introduced by Moses, and the command is that Israel should collectively and individually OBEY Him. What I'm saying is that belief in Jesus Christ for National blessing is not addressed in these Covenants. But the conditions for a National Recovery are stated - in Deuteronomy 30:1-5.

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. (Duet.30:1–5)

The passage assumes that the curses of the Law will befall Israel (v.1). The recovery will be instituted by Israel whole-heartedly return to what Moses was expounding THAT DAY. That day he was expounding the Law (see how many times "this day" is mentioned in the preceding Chapters.) Israel's National recovery is based on them turning back to what guaranteed their blessing - COVENANTS.

What Israel was offered by Jesus Christ was not only recovery on a National level, but an EXPANSION of the Promise that they would possess their Land and be leading Nation. In Romans 4:13, the WHOLE WORLD is now set before them. This is not the Kingdom of Israel. This is the Kingdom of God predicted in Daniel 2. Belief and obedience to Messiah bring the following:
1. Forgiveness of sin and sins
2. Rebirth of the human spirit
3. Partakers of the Divine Life
4. Sonship to God
5. Heir to the world
6. Immersion in the Holy Spirit for power
7. Possible co-kingship with Jesus of the earth
8. Espousal to Messiah
9. Marriage to Messiah
10. Transformation into the image and likeness of Christ
11. Resurrection with "celestial glory"
12. To have God dwelling in you

In other words - a return to the status of Eden. This was the portion that Israel threw away when they rejected Messiah. This is the portion that the New Man receives for FAITH and obedience.

Students of the Bible look to force FAITH on Israel. But the FAITH needed to partake of those 12 points is, "the hope of things UNSEEN" (Heb.11:1). And both Matthew 24 and Revelation 1 show Israel's first inkling of "Who they pierced" is when He bursts through the clouds above Mount Olives - AND THEY MOURN. Jesus is known by SIGHT - and this precludes FAITH.

Israel are restored Nationally because God Promised it by Covenant. Israel CAN NEVER enjoy the fruits of FAITH. The Covenants make them secure because GOD'S HONOR IS ATTACHED by His Promises. But for the New Man, or New Creature, FAITH is the set requirement. You will not find a scripture that shows Israel's collective turn to faith. When the individual Israelite turns to faith, he becomes a member of the New Creation and his PAST IS OVER. He no longer stands before God as an Israelite. There is NO Jew, NOR Greek in the New Man (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11).

[douggg]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It is the fond wish of many, including Paul the Apostle, that Israel would turn and believe. And one feels it keenly when we see how much God loved them. Because of this emotion, various doctrines of Israel being "saved" were sought after over the last centuries. The truth of the matter lies elsewhere. Israel faced two grand "salvations" when our Lord Jesus was among them. The first is regulated by the Covenant of Promise with Abraham.

Between Chapter 12 and Chapter 22 of Genesis, God made promises to Abraham, and in an inopportune moment when Abraham questioned God's veracity on an heir, God turned it into a Covenant (Gen.15). In these Chapters I count 15 promises. I might have misses one or two, but the fact is that Israel's NATIONAL future is regulated by the Covenant of Promise.

430 years later Israel enters into a second Covenant with Jehovah at Sinai. Israel's side is to keep about 615 laws and ordinances. God's side was to protect their borders and bless the Israelite with fertility, long life and prosperity. However, the penalties found in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 guaranteed their ejection from their Land and dispersion among the Nations in fear and chastisement.

IN NEITHER OF THESE COVENANTS IS THE  BELIEF IN A MESSIAH A CNDITION OF CONTINUED PROSPERITY AND/OR RESTORATION. In Deuteronomy 18:15-19 the Messiah is introduced by Moses, and the command is that Israel should collectively and individually OBEY Him. What I'm saying is that belief in Jesus Christ for National blessing is not addressed in these Covenants. But the conditions for a National Recovery are stated - in Deuteronomy 30:1-5.

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. (Duet.30:1–5)

The passage assumes that the curses of the Law will befall Israel (v.1). The recovery will be instituted by Israel whole-heartedly return to what Moses was expounding THAT DAY. That day he was expounding the Law (see how many times "this day" is mentioned in the preceding Chapters.) Israel's National recovery is based on them turning back to what guaranteed their blessing - COVENANTS.

What Israel was offered by Jesus Christ was not only recovery on a National level, but an EXPANSION of the Promise that they would possess their Land and be leading Nation. In Romans 4:13, the WHOLE WORLD is now set before them. This is not the Kingdom of Israel. This is the Kingdom of God predicted in Daniel 2. Belief and obedience to Messiah bring the following:
1. Forgiveness of sin and sins
2. Rebirth of the human spirit
3. Partakers of the Divine Life
4. Sonship to God
5. Heir to the world
6. Immersion in the Holy Spirit for power
7. Possible co-kingship with Jesus of the earth
8. Espousal to Messiah
9. Marriage to Messiah
10. Transformation into the image and likeness of Christ
11. Resurrection with "celestial glory"
12. To have God dwelling in you

In other words - a return to the status of Eden. This was the portion that Israel threw away when they rejected Messiah. This is the portion that the New Man receives for FAITH and obedience.

Students of the Bible look to force FAITH on Israel. But the FAITH needed to partake of those 12 points is, "the hope of things UNSEEN" (Heb.11:1). And both Matthew 24 and Revelation 1 show Israel's first inkling of "Who they pierced" is when He bursts through the clouds above Mount Olives - AND THEY MOURN. Jesus is known by SIGHT - and this precludes FAITH.

Israel are restored Nationally because God Promised it by Covenant. Israel CAN NEVER enjoy the fruits of FAITH. The Covenants make them secure because GOD'S HONOR IS ATTACHED by His Promises. But for the New Man, or New Creature, FAITH is the set requirement. You will not find a scripture that shows Israel's collective turn to faith. When the individual Israelite turns to faith, he becomes a member of the New Creation and his PAST IS OVER. He no longer stands before God as an Israelite. There is NO Jew, NOR Greek in the New Man (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11).

The Jews will become embrace the gospel of Salvation and will become believers in Jesus in Revelation 12:10.

When Jesus returns in Zechariah 14:4-5, and stands on the Mt. of Olives, the Jews made captive will escape through a valley when the Mt. of Olive is split in half, and the Jews flee from harm, as their forefathers fled before the earthquake the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by douggg

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, douggg said:

The Jews will become embrace the gospel of Salvation and will become believers in Jesus in Revelation 12:10.

When Jesus returns in Zechariah 14:4-5, and stands on the Mt. of Olives, the Jews made captive will escape through a valley when the Mt. of Olive is split in half, and the Jews flee from harm, as their forefathers fled before the earthquake the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

 

Let us examine Revelation 12:10-12 to see if we find Israel.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

The Man-Child is caught up the throne. This heralds to ejection of Satan from his normal habitat - heaven.

1. In what time or era is Satan cast out? The answer ... when he has but a little time left. His future is to be cast, not DOWN to the earth, but DOWN BELOW the earth (Rev.20). He is wrath and because he cannot touch the Man-Child, he vents on the Woman.
2. The time of God's Kingdom has come. Can Israel be involved? NO! The last 1260 days is when Israel make a pact with the Beast (Dan.9:27). They promote the Kingdom of the Dragon. The Kingdom of God has been removed from Israel. 12 Apostles will rule them in the Kingdom age.
3. The Overcomers "overcame HIM". WHO? The Dragon. Israel overcomes their enemies with the sword. Their battle is with flesh and blood. It is Christ's New Testament believers that must claim and use the new weapons because they are forbidden to fight flesh and blood. Against the spiritual wickedness in high places the blood of the Lamb cleanses and propitiates. It is the answer to accusation. The Israelite rejects the blood of Jesus and call for it to be upon them and their children. They rely on the blood of bulls and goats.
4. "The word of their testimony". WHO? The Overcomers - not Israel. What is the call of Israel? "We have Moses". What is the call of a Christian? "I have the power of Christ". Who defeated the Devil? Christ, not Moses.
5. The Law of Moses calls for blessing if obedient. The testimony of Jesus brings PERSECUTION. The Jew, if he loves life, keeps the Law. The Christian has no such guarantee. He must be prepared to loose his "soul-life (psuche - Gk)"
6. Who inhabits heaven now. God, Christ, the angels, and the Overcomers or Man-child. Is Israel ever in heaven? Never! they are "sand of the seas shore" set alongside the Nations. The Church is "stars of heaven" with "celestial glory" in resurrection.

far from these verses showing Israel turn to faith, they address a section of the Woman's seed - PLURAL - AT TE END OF THE AGE while Israel labors with the Beast.

 

On what basis is Satan cast out? Why was he

[douggg]

27 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The Man-Child is caught up the throne. This heralds to ejection of Satan from his normal habitat - heaven.

Jesus is caught up to God and his throne in Revelation 12:5.   

The wonder John sees portrayed in the third heaven is of historic events (verses 1-5) and end times events in (verses 6-12)

In Revelation 12:10 Satan and his angels have been cast down to earth from the second heaven, an end times event to take just after the seventh angel in Revelation 11 sounds.

The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is in Revelation 12:12 Satan having great wrath knowing he has but a short time - the time/times/half time.

27 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

! The last 1260 days is when Israel make a pact with the Beast (Dan.9:27).

No, the 1260 days is the first half of the seven years, before the seventh angel sounds his trumpet.    Israel never makes a pact with the beast.    

In Daniel 9:27, the Antichrist person, perceived by the Jews initially as their messiah, confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years.    The for 7 years is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, as a requirement of Moses, to have the law of Moses read to the nation of Israel on a 7 year cycle.

27 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

On what basis is Satan cast out? Why was he

Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth, just after the first 1260 days of the 7 years, to fulfill the mystery of God (Revelation 10:7 in the days of the seventh angel) to destroy Satan and his angels' kingdom of Mystery Babylon the Great - that has wreaked havoc and caused all of ills in creation - both in heaven and upon the earth.

Babylon is fallen, is fallen, in Revelation 18, in one hour, and described in the analogy of a great trading city built on evil comes to a sudden end.

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

There is only one fit to that verse.   Satan and his angels' mystical kingdom is Mystery Babylon the Great.

Edited June 20, 2023 by douggg