YEC's cannot reconcile "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 with the same 2 words in Jer 4:23!

[SavedOnebyGrace]

I am somewhat surprised 1 Enoch has not been brought up. It is Hebrew literature and quoted in the NT.

[teddyv]

On 8/8/2023 at 4:15 PM, FreeGrace said:

In eternity, there will be no answers that will upset us.

Not what I meant, but anyway.

On 8/8/2023 at 4:15 PM, FreeGrace said:

Where do you think the ANE cosmologies came from?

Generally, people telling stories that attempt to explain their place in the world and the nature of it.

On 8/8/2023 at 4:15 PM, FreeGrace said:

Not aware of it.

It is hypothesis about part of Earth's geological history.

On 8/8/2023 at 4:15 PM, FreeGrace said:

It's all laid out nicely at biblehub.com.  Type in any verse and you'll get about 28 English translations.

I meant other languages like say French, Dutch, Chinese, etc.

On 8/8/2023 at 4:15 PM, FreeGrace said:

Could you expound on a conceptualization vs a literal fashion?  Thanks.

The Genesis creation account has absolutely nothing to do with anything about the physical nature of the earth, or its geological history, or the development of life on earth. It is a story/myth (note: myth does not automatically mean fiction, despite that common association) that builds the worldview underpinning the Israelites. It is written within the common ideas and imagery of the peoples of the time. It is written against the contemporary creation myths (Israel had just left Egypt after being immersed in that culture over hundreds of years).

But yet even today, it still bears the truth of creator God who made this earth and universe, created humanity in his image to steward and oversee the created world. This is true despite our discoveries of the finer details of the nature of the universe and it's workings.

On 8/8/2023 at 4:15 PM, FreeGrace said:

Have you read Jer 4?  It certainly describes total destruction.  That's noty hyperbole.

Jeremiah 4 is full of poetry imagery and hyperbole. Do you think an actual lion came from the north? Did all of Israel's towns get wiped out by the Assyrians - I mean every single one? Nope. Because the Assyrians resettled other people into Israel after they were removed.

On 8/8/2023 at 4:15 PM, FreeGrace said:

Again, between v.1 and 2, God simply didn't give any detail.  Remember, you don't want to know.

??

On 8/8/2023 at 4:15 PM, FreeGrace said:

God creates out of nothing.  So there is nothing before He speaks.  So there is no state before He creates.  He doesn't create "tohu wabohu".  That describes a wasteland.

Yes. Primordial chaos. This is what people thought existed before the created world back in the day. We have to try to view the Scriptures as the people that wrote and listened to them did, not insert our Modernity derived sensibilities and historical views.

Edited August 10, 2023 by teddyv
grammar

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

  FreeGrace said: 

Where do you think the ANE cosmologies came from?

Generally, people telling stories that attempt to explain their place in the world and the nature of it.

Why not believe that Adam and Eve's progeny who actually heard from first person accounts?  Doesn't that hold any sway?  I sure does for me.

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

It is hypothesis about part of Earth's geological history.

That would be history after creation, right?

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

FreeGrace said: 

It's all laid out nicely at biblehub.com.  Type in any verse and you'll get about 28 English translations.

I meant other languages like say French, Dutch, Chinese, etc.

I can't speak to that.  I would imagine that there are far more translations in English than in the other world languages, but I could be wrong.  

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

The Genesis creation account has absolutely nothing to do with anything about the physical nature of the earth, or its geological history, or the development of life on earth.

The Genesis creation account had no "geological history".  All we know from v.1 is that God created everything.  And God didn't give any details about what happened after creation and before He restored the planet for man's use.

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

It is a story/myth (note: myth does not automatically mean fiction, despite that common association) that builds the worldview underpinning the Israelites.

The creation account has nothing about the Israelites.  God didn't choose that people group until way after He created humanity.  Start with Genesis 12.

btw, found this on the web:

noun

• 1.a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events: "ancient Celtic myths"Similarfolk talestoryfolk storylegend
• 2.a widely held but false belief or idea: "he wants to dispel the myth that sea kayaking is too risky or too strenuous"

I'd be careful what I call a myth.  I'll bet most people view a "myth" as unreality.

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

It is written within the common ideas and imagery of the peoples of the time. It is written against the contemporary creation myths (Israel had just left Egypt after being immersed in that culture over hundreds of years).

All stories/accounts of creation came from Adam and Eve's children, who were told in first person experience about creation.   Obviously, over time, these accounts became "embellished" all kinds of ways.

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

But yet even today, it still bears the truth of creator God who made this earth and universe, created humanity in his image to steward and oversee the created world. This is true despite our discoveries of the finer details of the nature of the universe and it's workings.

Very true!

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

Jeremiah 4 is full of poetry imagery and hyperbole.

Doesn't matter or change the reality of what happened to "the whole land" by an invading army.

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

Do you think an actual lion came from the north?

Imagery to describe a devouring (destroying) army.  Obviously.

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

Did all of Israel's towns get wiped out by the Assyrians - I mean every single one? Nope. Because the Assyrians resettled other people into Israel after they were removed.

I wasn't there.  And it seems you are dodging the clear point.  "Tohu wabohu" is used to describe the RESULT of a destroying army.  That is the point about those 2 Hebrew words.  The SAME 2 words used in Gen 1:2 to describe the condition of the planet AFTER God created it.  We don't know WHEN between creation and restoration, but it is clear that something did happen and God did restore the earth.

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

FreeGrace said: 

God creates out of nothing.  So there is nothing before He speaks.  So there is no state before He creates.  He doesn't create "tohu wabohu".  That describes a wasteland.

Yes. Primordial chaos. This is what people thought existed before the created world back in the day.

Who cares what people thought?  That notion came from Darwin and his theories.  There was NOTHING before God created something.  That's the point.  God didn't create "primordial chaos" before He then created the earth.  

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

We have to try to view the Scriptures as the people that wrote and listened to them did, not insert our Modernity derived sensibilities and historical views.

There is no "modernity derived sensibilities/historical views" inserted here, since it seems you aren't very clear on all that.

The LXX begins v.2 with the Greek for "but", which shows a conjunction of CONTRAST, rather than the very common "and" in most of the English translations, which is a conjunction of continuation.  So we have a shift, a change in direction, based on the scholars of the LXX.

Then, the specific form of the verb in v.2 is commonly translated as "became" elsewhere in the Bible.  

And finally, there is just no way any object can be formless.  Every object has form.  Without exception.  So "without form and void" is a really stupid attempt to translate the 2 words in v.2.  Unfortunately, even Jer 4:23 is translated that way by the NASB, and they should know better.

However, here are the translations that got it right:

American Standard Version
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was waste and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
I looked in the earth, and behold, chaos and emptiness, and to the Heavens, and their light is not there

English Revised Version
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was waste and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Good News Translation
I looked at the earth--it was a barren waste; at the sky--there was no light. 

JPS Tanakh 1917
I beheld the earth, And, lo, it was waste and void; And the heavens, and they had no light.

New American Bible
I looked at the earth—it was waste and void; at the heavens—their light had gone out! 

NET Bible
"I looked at the land and saw that it was an empty wasteland. I looked up at the sky, and its light had vanished. 

New Revised Standard Version
I looked on the earth, and lo, it was waste and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.

New Heart English Bible
I saw the earth, and, look, it was waste and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

World English Bible
I saw the earth and, behold, it was waste and void, and the heavens, and they had no light. 

Young's Literal Translation
I looked to the land, and lo, waste and void, And unto the heavens, and their light is not.

[BeyondET]

On 8/8/2023 at 7:58 AM, FreeGrace said:

Then why are you rejecting the most simple and logical reason why the earth is much older than Adam?

I didnt say anything about Adam's age and the earth's age, of coarse the earth is older than Adam.

 

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, BeyondET said:

FreeGrace said: 

Then why are you rejecting the most simple and logical reason why the earth is much older than Adam?

I didnt say anything about Adam's age and the earth's age, of coarse the earth is older than Adam.

That's why I'm asking.  This thread challenges YEC to reconcile "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 and Jer 4:23.

Since you have been disagreeing with me, that would indicate that you are a YEC.  So what is the basis of your disagreement with my view?

[BeyondET]

10 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

That's why I'm asking.  This thread challenges YEC to reconcile "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 and Jer 4:23.

Since you have been disagreeing with me, that would indicate that you are a YEC.  So what is the basis of your disagreement with my view?

There are more days of creation than verse 1:2. Are you implying the rest of creation is young?

[FreeGrace]

4 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

FreeGrace said: 

That's why I'm asking.  This thread challenges YEC to reconcile "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 and Jer 4:23.

Since you have been disagreeing with me, that would indicate that you are a YEC.  So what is the basis of your disagreement with my view?

There are more days of creation than verse 1:2. Are you implying the rest of creation is young?

You didn't actually address my question.

First, please explain the "extra" days of creation using Scripture.

Second, I'm not implying anything.  Gen 1:1 is obviously referring to original creation, where God spoke (Psa 33:6,9) everything into existence; universe and earth.

Gen 1:2 shows that something rendered the earth "tohu wabohu", which, according to Jer 4:23, is the condition of "the land" after an invading army destroys it.  So that clearly implies an unknown amount of time between v.1 and v.2.  

If there are more "days of creation", why haven't you brought it up before?  

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

You didn't actually address my question.

First, please explain the "extra" days of creation using Scripture.

Second, I'm not implying anything.  Gen 1:1 is obviously referring to original creation, where God spoke (Psa 33:6,9) everything into existence; universe and earth.

Gen 1:2 shows that something rendered the earth "tohu wabohu", which, according to Jer 4:23, is the condition of "the land" after an invading army destroys it.  So that clearly implies an unknown amount of time between v.1 and v.2.  

If there are more "days of creation", why haven't you brought it up before?  

I didn't say extra days, do you think there are 6 days in scripture and a rest day?

Even if earth was created then became a wasteland, the length of time in between isn't known. Could of been a long or short duration.

And scripture doesn't say the heavens in the beginning was full of light just says the heavens then the host of them. Scripture doesn't describe everything in the universe as being created in a instant.

Psalm 33:6

By the word of the LORD were the heavens made;

and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Edited August 12, 2023 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, BeyondET said:

I didn't say extra days, do you think there are 6 days in scripture and a rest day?

That's what the Bible says.  How do you read Genesis 1?

13 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Even if earth was created then became a wasteland, the length of time in between isn't known. Could of been a long or short duration.

Science has measured the speed of light and it reveals a very LARGE universe, and the time it takes light to travel to earth from far reaches of space demonstrate how OLD the universe is.

btw, I never suggested that the destruction of the earth is the determining factor in the age of the earth.  I don't care about how long the destruction took.  That isn't even the issue.  The obvious issue is HOW LONG A TIME BEFORE the earth became a wasteland after original creation .  Again, science can prove a very old universe from the speed of light.

13 hours ago, BeyondET said:

And scripture doesn't say the heavens in the beginning was full of light just says the heavens then the host of them. Scripture doesn't describe everything in the universe as being created in a instant.

And what is your point here?

13 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Psalm 33:6

By the word of the LORD were the heavens made;

and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

The "breath of His mouth" means to speak.

Don't forget v.9 -  For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

Pretty clear, if you ask me.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

On 8/12/2023 at 5:49 PM, BeyondET said:

There are more days of creation than verse 1:2. Are you implying the rest of creation is young?

Genesis 1:2 is outside the days of creation. Genesis 1:3 begins the text of Day 1.