Rapture: to be or not to be?

[The Light]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Are there any verses that unambiguously show Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven?

Sure.

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Revelation 19

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Now show us where you fly away before these christians in Israel are persecuted.Bach up your claim with scripture.Show us you being raptured before these Christians in israel suffer tribulation.

 

I can't exactly show you where the Church flies away simply because Jesus says that He comes in an hour that we think not. That is why we are to watch so we will know the hour that He comes. 

I can show you where the second harvest flys away at the 6th seal as the Lord says that the generation that sees the fig tree put forth leaves will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled.

Psalms 90

10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

[DeighAnn]

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Jesus was sent unto the House of Israel ONLY in his ministry, thus the Wheat represents only Israel. Wheat needs to be be crushed in order to be sifted and harvested, Israel needs to be CRUSHED in order for God to sift and harvest them also, that is what the 70 weeks are designed to do, get Israel to repent, put them through tribulation to force repentance. 

The Church are already in Christ Jesus, we are the Barley, we do not need to be forced to repent (SMILE) we do so during our lives as in now, before the 70th week comes, some individual Jews do also, but not Israel as a whole nation. God demands Israel to repent so He can set up His promised kingdom age, else He is a liar. The Tares in that parable are the Wicked Grapes in the Rev. 14 Harvest chapter. We see the 144,000 (All Jews who repent) are the Wheat, they will rule with Jesus from Jerusalem so they are shown on Mt. Zion, even though when Jesus returns they will be in the Petra/Bozrah area, its prose, showing the 144,000 rule with Jesus from Jerusalem. Then the other End Time Harvest is the Grape Harvest, God will place them in the Wine-press of His Wrath but they will only be judged after the 1000 year reign at the 2nd Resurrection, thus just like the Tares who are bound (placed in a grave) and burned LATER, the Wicked Grapes are killed and will be judged later. Finally, just like in modern movies, God gave us the original FLACHBACK, and in Rev. 14:14 we see Jesus from upon a cloud Harvesting the church (Barley) which needs not to be crushed in order to be sifted. 

The very word Tribulation comes from a Greek word Tribulum, which was a machine that CRUSHED WHEAT !! There is a reason we have answers to all you guys misunderstandings, but you guys can not rebut us on anything. The truth always rises like a fine cream sister. 

Seriously, are you trying to tell me the SCATTERED SHEEP of the House of Israel ALSO returned to  JERUSALEM when the House of Judah were sent from Babylon even though they had been released from  THEIR captivity to the Assyrians some 400? years before and even WHEN in all that time

THEY had never gone back to inhabit their own lands?   

There is no mention of that taking place ANY WHERE I have ever read, and since that would be the EXACT OPPOSITE of what is written.  How do you explain that?  

I know in your STUDY the Old Testament you found it easy to PROVE where those who went back to build the temple (THE SOUTHERN TRIBES that went into the Babylonia captivity)  and when and why, but as for Ephriam,  you must know that is a completely different story and they were the ones who were scattered ESPECIALLY SINCE THE JEWS HAVE NEVER HEARD HIS VOICE.  How do you explain that?  

So, if you tell me what happened to the NORTHERN Tribes, what prophecies were given them and how they were fulfilled (and if you would like what countries they 'became' when their punishment ended so I will know we are on the same page, and then we will talk.  Short of that, we will never agree because you don't seem to know who the scattered sheep were as you seem to think they were Judah and Benjamin, who weren't scattered at all as we know exactly what they did and when.  

Again, IF you don't give me Scripture to the points you try to make, I can't  follow your line of thinking as your beliefs are very foreign to me. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Church are already in Christ Jesus,

Yes, because THEY HEARD HIS VOICE...did you catch that clue?   All those who hear His voice...from the SCATTERED SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.  Not the WHOLE house, not JACOB, not ALL of Israel...but the scattered sheep of the HOUSE of Israel...

And ISRAEL is IN PART (the southern part) blinded UNTIL the time of the gentiles...they are BLINDED BY GOD for the scattered sheep...so don't boast...

YOU seem to think they are blinded for OUR BENEFIT and GOD FOLLOWS THAT with a good old punishment.. for being blinded...You don't see the problem there, do you?  

It's so funny how all the PRE TRIBS say the CHURCH has nothing to do with ISRAEL BUT
call upon EVERYTHING written to them and by them to PROVE how much a part of them the church is not.  Isn't there a word for that?  



 

Eph 2
10 Of Him for we are workmanship having been created in Christ Jesus for works good which prepared beforehand God, that in them we should walk

11 Therefore remember that formerly you the Gentiles in flesh the ones being called the uncircumcision by that being called the circumcision in flesh made by hands

12 that YOU WERE at the time THAT

separate from Christ

ALIENATED FROM

(From apo and a derivative of allotrios; to estrange away, i.e. (passively and figuratively) to be non-participant -- alienate, be alien).

the COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL

and strangers to the COVENANTS of the promise,

hope not having
and without God
in the world

13  NOW HOWEVER in Christ Jesus YOU 

THE ONCE BEING FAR OFF

HAVE BECOME NEAR

BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

14 He Himself for is the peace of us

having made BOTH ONE

and the barrier of the fence having broken down

15 the hostility, in the flesh of Him, the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS IN ORDINANCES having annulled


so that the 

TWO HE MIGHT create in Himself

into ONE NEW MAN MAKING PEACE

AND HE MIGHT RECONCILE BOTH
in one body to God


THROUGH THE CROSS,
Having slain the hostility by it.  

He ISN'T LOOKING for ANYONE to divide WHAT HE DIED TO BRING TOGETHER and made ONE.  



making BOTH IN ONE BODY.  Not two in two bodies for two raptures for two returns for two dead risings for two catching ups....


And that is why you and I don't agree.  I agree with NO LONGER BEING FAR and being made ONE.  

You don't.  

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by DeighAnn

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

How many times am I going to have to show you there is more than one harvest?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I just showed you in Revelation 14 the harvest has the righteous harvested 1st. 

NO it doesn't. 

YOU can say it a BILLION TIMES but you can't make the ORIGINAL language say it.  

If it did you would show it saying so in the origional language, JUST LIKE I HAVE. 

BUT when we go back to the original language, what YOU are putting forth is SHOWN TO BE THE OPPOSITE of what is written.   

What you SAY IS PLURAL IT SAYS IS SINGULAR.  The issue isn't WITH ME, it is with what is written and YOUR not believing it.  

I can't be ANY MORE CLEAR THAN THAT. 

You have warned me, and I have warned you.  ONE OF US is going to be in a TON OF TROUBLE AND NAKED AS HELL and burnt to a crisp.   

What are you going to say

when GOD shows you exactly what I have shown you?   

Not going to be 'i didn't know' anymore

 

[DeighAnn]

Allow to grow together BOTH  (Adjective - Accusative Neuter Plural)
until the harvest (Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular)
and in the time (Noun - Dative Masculine Singular)
of the (Article - Genitive Masculine Singular)
harvest (Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular)
I will say to the harvesters (Noun Dative Masculine PLURAL)
Gather first the weeds (PLURAL)
and bind them into bundles in order to burn them; and (CONJUNCTION)
the wheat (Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular)
gather together into the barn of me


No matter WHAT SPIN is put towards this,

It is written as A SINGULAR HARVEST

WITH MULTIPLE harvesters.   

NOT multiple harvests each with a single harvester.  

[Montana Marv]

33 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Allow to grow together BOTH  (Adjective - Accusative Neuter Plural)
until the harvest (Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular)
and in the time (Noun - Dative Masculine Singular)
of the (Article - Genitive Masculine Singular)
harvest (Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular)
I will say to the harvesters (Noun Dative Masculine PLURAL)
Gather first the weeds (PLURAL)
and bind them into bundles in order to burn them; and (CONJUNCTION)
the wheat (Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular)
gather together into the barn of me


No matter WHAT SPIN is put towards this,

It is written as A SINGULAR HARVEST

WITH MULTIPLE harvesters.   

NOT multiple harvests each with a single harvester.  

So what you are implying is that the Harvest may last several days, weeks or months or years. Not all go into the barn at the same time, yet the weeds are gathered first, to be burned at a later date; which could be days, weeks or months after the wheat harvest.  Once the harvest begins, the wheat has priority for the barn.  Later the weeds are burned. How much later, who knows.

When looking at this. This is as valid shortly after Pentecost up to our present time.  The Church Age.  The battle is the Seed of the Word of God in us, verses Satan trying to quench out this Seed. Are we producing, wood, hay and stubble (to be burned) or Gold, Silver and Precious Stones.  When Glorification happens, the Wood, Hay and Stubble is to be burned (no rewards), Yet Gold, Silver and Precious Stones lead to some of our rewards.

This is a different take on this parable.  It is a parable, it is not prophecy.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

18 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

The verse you just quoted says in the middle of the week ,he will put an end to sacrifice.

The daily sacrifice is not the abomination of desolation

 

AND on a wing of the temple he will set up the A/D  (Mid Week), as are the removal of sacrifice and offerings.  Don't cut the verse of short.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Psalms 90

10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Are you saying that PSALM 90 

was written FOR the second to last generation of Christians ONLY, and the Psalm is  PUTTING forth the pre trib rapture theory and is not for anyone else?  



How about Ezekiel 13 for How God feels about those who teach 

19And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

20Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

21Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

22Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.


Philippians 1:20-23 - According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.  But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 
 

[DeighAnn]

33 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

So what you are implying is that the Harvest may last several days, weeks or months or years. Not all go into the barn at the same time, yet the weeds are gathered first, to be burned at a later date; which could be days, weeks or months after the wheat harvest.  Once the harvest begins, the wheat has priority for the barn.  Later the weeds are burned. How much later, who knows.

When looking at this. This is as valid shortly after Pentecost up to our present time.  The Church Age.  The battle is the Seed of the Word of God in us, verses Satan trying to quench out this Seed. Are we producing, wood, hay and stubble (to be burned) or Gold, Silver and Precious Stones.  When Glorification happens, the Wood, Hay and Stubble is to be burned (no rewards), Yet Gold, Silver and Precious Stones lead to some of our rewards.

This is a different take on this parable.  It is a parable, it is not prophecy.

In Christ

Montana Marv

No, I am not.  

I am saying just what I showed above.  

You are the one adding in "whatever amount of time you will see fit" for the Jewish harvest schedule of food


But we know in AN HOUR it all comes to naught.  
 

16And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

20Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.


 

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

[Shilohsfoal]

7 hours ago, The Light said:

I can't exactly show you where the Church flies away simply because Jesus says that He comes in an hour that we think not. That is why we are to watch so we will know the hour that He comes. 

I can show you where the second harvest flys away at the 6th seal as the Lord says that the generation that sees the fig tree put forth leaves will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled.

Psalms 90

10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

That would be after this tribulation and not before.Because the people who names are written in the lambs book of life are not delivered untill after this tribulation.

 

Daniel 12:1

At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

 

 

So I take it you believe your name is not written in the lambs book of life.

No one is delivered  before this delivery who names are written.Unless you believe Elon musk is going to wisk you away in spaceX ,your not leaving this earth .