The 24 elders around God Throne are the representation of the church

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I believe chapter 5 is still yet future. The souls under the altar are tribulation martyrs. You mentioned the angels kicked out, I don't know if you mean chapter 12, but Job 1 seems to indicate that at least Satan still has access to Heaven, so I think chapter 12 is also still future. However I will say it seems some prophecies have dual fulfillment, so some things might refer to something that already happened in the past AND something that will again happen in the future. So even the things that seem like they might have already happened may also still have a future fulfillment. 

What I do agree with is the 'dual fulfillment' as some are set forth at present as types to what comes future. A few questions

What about chapter 5 can take place in future only?
What about chapter 4 fits the past? 

When you read Chapters 2 and 3 what impression are you left with? 

1. The church has some really big issues UNACCEPTABLE to the Lord on earth, so definitely impossible to withstand 'the Consuming FIRE' seated in heaven and needing all that time until Christs return time to get things right
or
2. It's in great shape ready 'to rapture' right then and ready as it stands in its' ways to JUDGE the world in Christs kingdom no time or change necessary?


In Rev Chapters 1 2 and 3 we are given what is/has been going on, on the earth and

In Chapter 4 and 5 we are given we are given what is/has been going on, in heaven.

Everything in those chapters even to John are past or present.  Jesus has been born and sacrificed, the Lamb of God found 'worthy', The Church has been set up on earth to take the Good news to the world until the Gospel has 'gone out to all the world', no longer only of the BLOODLINE but to all 'ethnos' from then on.  The church still has lots of work to do and is shown to have lots of false teachings that need to be overcome.  

  
What Chapter 6 REVEALS would also be PAST to John by 50 years or so, wouldn't it?   

So, what do you see the reason for the book being 'sealed' in the first place and why was the book 'unsealed' when Christ is found back in Heaven?  When you ask yourself

What EVENTS had taken place up until then would you agree that 

God had chosen a people, He had given the Laws of His kingdom, they had all been "written" and The Nation He had promised, had come, but the 'covenant' broken by the people even though He had remained faithful, had gone but He still had another Temple built for the 'King' and the Kingdom of Heaven to come to rule on earth, but that had also come and BEEN rejected with the crucifixion of the KING?   


Do you remember what Jesus said right before His work for that day was finished?

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me  John 14:30 

Do you realize He was found in Heaven VERY SHORTLY after He said that?

DOESN'T THE BOOK that WAS immediately UNSEALED upon Christs return to heaven TELL US WHAT IS COMING UPON THE EARTH?

Doesn't it READ like it is all about the KINGDOM of the prince of this world and what it will be like?  Doesn't the final seal tell us how it will come up what will happen and how it ultimately will end?  

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another and there was given unto him a great sword.

A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Haven't ALL THOSE THINGS BEEN GOING ON SINCE THE KINGDOM of HEAVEN WAS REJECTED?

And hasn't the Church continued to carry on and grow throughout these 2000 years, 'the oil and the wine' not hurt, although there have been many MARTYRS along the way...God never giving 'more than they could take' "always a way out" if one couldn't do the 'job' others 'looking for a better resurrection' 

which would be where the souls under the altar have come from and how they are there before the TRIB begins....
 

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

SO we have THE ANGELS IN HEAVEN* under the altar, resting a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.  (US)


What do all these have in common as an Adverb?
Matthew 1:18 
Matthew 26:34 
Matthew 26:75 
Mark 14:30 
Mark 14:72 
Luke 2:26 
Luke 22:61 
John 4:49 
John 8:58 
John 14:29 
Acts 2:20 
Acts 7:2 
Acts 25:16 





So THAT is my straightforward, easy to follow, make total sense while causing no conflict and needing no explanation, WRITTEN in GODS own words understanding 

and why I cannot follow your understanding of it.

But at LEAST my timeline 

DOESN'T have a church (having just received a failing grade for the most part)
with yet 2000 years still in its future - already in heaven, before its' birth having 'mysteriously' renamed itself as 'the elders'. 

without any rhyme, reason, or explanation other than 'I SAID SO' ever given.  THERE IS NOT WORD ONE WRITTEN that speaks to that.  IT IS put forth because of a DOCTRINE for which there ALSO is not one world written.  


Nor do I have a book that has been unsealed for 2000 years being referred to as still 'sealed'

Nor do I have any events the whole WORLD (whether they believe in the words of God or not) HAS BEEN reporting and recording in profane history for the past 2000 years being put forth as 'future only'

Nor do I have 'souls' under the altar CLEARLY BEFORE the trib even begins being referred to as coming 'FROM the trib'



 

*29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

.  

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

What I do agree with is the 'dual fulfillment' as some are set forth at present as types to what comes future. A few questions

What about chapter 5 can take place in future only?
What about chapter 4 fits the past? 

When you read Chapters 2 and 3 what impression are you left with? 

1. The church has some really big issues UNACCEPTABLE to the Lord on earth, so definitely impossible to withstand 'the Consuming FIRE' seated in heaven and needing all that time until Christs return time to get things right
or
2. It's in great shape ready 'to rapture' right then and ready as it stands in its' ways to JUDGE the world in Christs kingdom no time or change necessary?


In Rev Chapters 1 2 and 3 we are given what is/has been going on, on the earth and

In Chapter 4 and 5 we are given we are given what is/has been going on, in heaven.

Everything in those chapters even to John are past or present.  Jesus has been born and sacrificed, the Lamb of God found 'worthy', The Church has been set up on earth to take the Good news to the world until the Gospel has 'gone out to all the world', no longer only of the BLOODLINE but to all 'ethnos' from then on.  The church still has lots of work to do and is shown to have lots of false teachings that need to be overcome.  

  
What Chapter 6 REVEALS would also be PAST to John by 50 years or so, wouldn't it?   

So, what do you see the reason for the book being 'sealed' in the first place and why was the book 'unsealed' when Christ is found back in Heaven?  When you ask yourself

What EVENTS had taken place up until then would you agree that 

God had chosen a people, He had given the Laws of His kingdom, they had all been "written" and The Nation He had promised, had come, but the 'covenant' broken by the people even though He had remained faithful, had gone but He still had another Temple built for the 'King' and the Kingdom of Heaven to come to rule on earth, but that had also come and BEEN rejected with the crucifixion of the KING?   


Do you remember what Jesus said right before His work for that day was finished?

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me  John 14:30 

Do you realize He was found in Heaven VERY SHORTLY after He said that?

DOESN'T THE BOOK that WAS immediately UNSEALED upon Christs return to heaven TELL US WHAT IS COMING UPON THE EARTH?

Doesn't it READ like it is all about the KINGDOM of the prince of this world and what it will be like?  Doesn't the final seal tell us how it will come up what will happen and how it ultimately will end?  

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another and there was given unto him a great sword.

A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Haven't ALL THOSE THINGS BEEN GOING ON SINCE THE KINGDOM of HEAVEN WAS REJECTED?

And hasn't the Church continued to carry on and grow throughout these 2000 years, 'the oil and the wine' not hurt, although there have been many MARTYRS along the way...God never giving 'more than they could take' "always a way out" if one couldn't do the 'job' others 'looking for a better resurrection' 

which would be where the souls under the altar have come from and how they are there before the TRIB begins....
 

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

SO we have THE ANGELS IN HEAVEN* under the altar, resting a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.  (US)


What do all these have in common as an Adverb?
Matthew 1:18 
Matthew 26:34 
Matthew 26:75 
Mark 14:30 
Mark 14:72 
Luke 2:26 
Luke 22:61 
John 4:49 
John 8:58 
John 14:29 
Acts 2:20 
Acts 7:2 
Acts 25:16 





So THAT is my straightforward, easy to follow, make total sense while causing no conflict and needing no explanation, WRITTEN in GODS own words understanding 

and why I cannot follow your understanding of it.

But at LEAST my timeline 

DOESN'T have a church (having just received a failing grade for the most part)
with yet 2000 years still in its future - already in heaven, before its' birth having 'mysteriously' renamed itself as 'the elders'. 

without any rhyme, reason, or explanation other than 'I SAID SO' ever given.  THERE IS NOT WORD ONE WRITTEN that speaks to that.  IT IS put forth because of a DOCTRINE for which there ALSO is not one world written.  


Nor do I have a book that has been unsealed for 2000 years being referred to as still 'sealed'

Nor do I have any events the whole WORLD (whether they believe in the words of God or not) HAS BEEN reporting and recording in profane history for the past 2000 years being put forth as 'future only'

Nor do I have 'souls' under the altar CLEARLY BEFORE the trib even begins being referred to as coming 'FROM the trib'



 

*29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

.  

That was a very long response and I hope you'll forgive me that I don't have time to respond to all of it. If you want to copy a smaller portion of your response, I'll do my best to get to it later. 

Revelation 1-3 is not prophesy. It is Jesus addressing 7 REAL churches that existed at that time. He lays criticisms against 5 and commends 2. Chapter 4 I believe is past, present, and future. Although 4:1 isn't a rapture verse, I believe that's where the rapture occurs in the timeline of Revelation. Chapter 5 is definitely future in my opinion because those under the altar are tribulation saints killed by Antichrist, which hasn't yet happened. And definitely anything from chapter 6 forward is future because none of the seals have been broken yet. 

 

 

[The Light]

On 10/5/2023 at 6:45 PM, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

That was a very long response and I hope you'll forgive me that I don't have time to respond to all of it. If you want to copy a smaller portion of your response, I'll do my best to get to it later. 

 

LOL. You opened Pandora's box. Doing so merits that you be met with a plethora of out of context scriptures designed to wear you down into defeat.

And that was only the first volley. 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 10/7/2023 at 11:01 PM, The Light said:

LOL. You opened Pandora's box. Doing so merits that you be met with a plethora of out of context scriptures designed to wear you down into defeat.

And that was only the first volley. 

People using out of context scriptures will certainly not wear me down. I've been studying the scriptures for over 30 years, and I am extremely confident in my beliefs. I've noticed that some people on here who have no scriptures to support their viewpoints simply repeat themselves over and over hoping that other people will agree simply because they repeat themselves. But I guess they fail to see that repeating a point over and over does not somehow make it true, and that scripture is our final authority not an opinion that we simply recite a thousand times to ourselves or others.

[farouk]

10 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

People using out of context scriptures will certainly not wear me down. I've been studying the scriptures for over 30 years, and I am extremely confident in my beliefs. I've noticed that some people on here who have no scriptures to support their viewpoints simply repeat themselves over and over hoping that other people will agree simply because they repeat themselves. But I guess they fail to see that repeating a point over and over does not somehow make it true, and that scripture is our final authority not an opinion that we simply recite a thousand times to ourselves or others.

@TrueFollowerOfChrist Good indeed to search the Scriptures bearing in mind the context of the verses quoted.........

[The Light]

13 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

 I've been studying the scriptures for over 30 years, and I am extremely confident in my beliefs.

So after 30 years of study could I ask if you believe in a rapture and if so when does it occur as to the tribulation?

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 10/9/2023 at 8:59 PM, The Light said:

So after 30 years of study could I ask if you believe in a rapture and if so when does it occur as to the tribulation?

Yes, I believe in the rapture. There are scriptures that support it and it has been believed by the Christian community and mentioned by church fathers all the way back to the 2nd century. Out of the 4 rapture positions I am aware of, I believe the Pre-Tribulation rapture is the most likely and the one I personally hold to. The Mid-Tribulational rapture is possible as well, but I believe the scriptures make more sense with the Pre-Trib position. The main verse I use to support a specific Pre-Trib position is Revelation 3:10 which I believe is a promise to keep all believers ( except the ones who convert after the rapture ) from the world wide tribulation. I can explain more if you want. 

[The Light]

On 10/11/2023 at 6:38 AM, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Yes, I believe in the rapture. There are scriptures that support it and it has been believed by the Christian community and mentioned by church fathers all the way back to the 2nd century. Out of the 4 rapture positions I am aware of, I believe the Pre-Tribulation rapture is the most likely and the one I personally hold to. The Mid-Tribulational rapture is possible as well, but I believe the scriptures make more sense with the Pre-Trib position. The main verse I use to support a specific Pre-Trib position is Revelation 3:10 which I believe is a promise to keep all believers ( except the ones who convert after the rapture ) from the world wide tribulation. I can explain more if you want. 

Thank you for responding. I also believe in a pretrib rapture. The main verse I use is

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

However, through my studies I have come to realize that there two raptures as the fig tree has two harvests.

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The fathers of Isreal were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest. But they served other Gods and would not be the first harvest. The Gentiles are the first harvest.

After the pretribulation rapture we have 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest which occurs at the 6th seal. One coming is like the days of Noah where Noah is sealed in the ark 6 days before the flood and one coming is like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

Jacob had two brides. There are all kinds of additional evidence that there are two raptures. Just something to think about in your studies.

[Revelation Man]

On 10/11/2023 at 6:38 AM, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Yes, I believe in the rapture. There are scriptures that support it and it has been believed by the Christian community and mentioned by church fathers all the way back to the 2nd century. Out of the 4 rapture positions I am aware of, I believe the Pre-Tribulation rapture is the most likely and the one I personally hold to. The Mid-Tribulational rapture is possible as well, but I believe the scriptures make more sense with the Pre-Trib position. The main verse I use to support a specific Pre-Trib position is Revelation 3:10 which I believe is a promise to keep all believers ( except the ones who convert after the rapture ) from the world wide tribulation. I can explain more if you want. 

She will certainly post a wall of scriptures and since she posted them she thinks that makes her correct (SMILE......Sigh). She doesn't quit get if you are in error on things you post, you are still in error even if you past a wall of scriptures.

I get what you and light are saying via certain verses, and I agree with those verses, but the "TIMLINES" as seen, especially in Revelation makes only a pre trib possible. With passages like the ones you guys named, yes it might be possible for a pre wrath Rapture, (even though, imho, its not because of the wedding pattern) but the timelines in Revelation pretty much destroys any other rapture timing. The problem is most can not seem to unscramble the book of Revelation enough to see the timelines.

The 7 Feasts, imho, are also a great way to prove the Pre Trib. We saw the three Spring Feasts fulfilled in Jesus (Passover, Unleavened Bread and First-fruits) We are now in the Feast of weeks (Summer Harvest/Church Age) and Jesus is fulfilling this as our High Priest). We now need the three Fall Feasts to be fulfilled. This happens when Jesus blows the LAST TRUMP (Feast of Trumps) and ends the Harvest/Church Age. He really just fulfills this by calling us home as Rev. 4:1 says. Then Israel must atone (Feast of Atonement) and Tabernacle or Dwell with Jesus (Feast of Tabernacles). 

Get this, the 7 Feasts were Holy Convocations (Dress Rehearsals). 

[The Light]

On 10/13/2023 at 1:11 AM, Revelation Man said:

 

The 7 Feasts, imho, are also a great way to prove the Pre Trib.

Exactly.

On 10/13/2023 at 1:11 AM, Revelation Man said:

We saw the three Spring Feasts fulfilled in Jesus (Passover, Unleavened Bread and First-fruits) We are now in the Feast of weeks (Summer Harvest/Church Age) and Jesus is fulfilling this as our High Priest).

The spring feasts are not yet fulfilled. Passover is a spring harvest feast, and the harvest has not occurred. The dead in Christ will likely be raised on one of the spring feasts, Passover, I would think.

The Lord will return for the alive that remained in the summer, and He will bring the dead with Him as the alive will not precede the dead in Christ. This will be a summer harvest, Feast of New Wine is likely, at Tu B'Av.

Acts 2

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

 

On 10/13/2023 at 1:11 AM, Revelation Man said:

 

We now need the three Fall Feasts to be fulfilled. This happens when Jesus blows the LAST TRUMP (Feast of Trumps) and ends the Harvest/Church Age.

The Church age will be over in the summer. The Feast of Trumpets is for the 12 tribes. There are 144,000 first fruits because there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth. The dragon will not be able to get to the woman as she is in a place of protection. The dragon will go after her seed, the twelve tribes across the earth.

Revelation 12

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That said, there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes at the 6th seal when the Lord sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

On 10/13/2023 at 1:11 AM, Revelation Man said:

 

He really just fulfills this by calling us home as Rev. 4:1 says. Then Israel must atone (Feast of Atonement) and Tabernacle or Dwell with Jesus (Feast of Tabernacles). 

Yes, these Feasts are for the Nation of Israel. The seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth will already be in heaven at the marriage supper with the Church and will return with the armies of heaven.

On 10/13/2023 at 1:11 AM, Revelation Man said:

Get this, the 7 Feasts were Holy Convocations (Dress Rehearsals). 

Amen