The Tap On The Back

[Starise]

On 8/29/2023 at 6:24 PM, Neighbor said:

Hmm, maybe not enough  individuals pray diligently for their own ( loved ones and friends) to be turned about for   as long a period of time as is made available to be in prayer. My own forceful turning about was as result of God answering prayer of those that had prayed for me not for hours but decades and also having shared  by reading the Bible to me as a young child. While "we" may not live long enough to  know the result, God is faithful to answer prayer.

So here's a hypothetical question. What if lost person A has noone to pray for them, lost person B has only one person praying for them, and lost person C has 100 people praying for them. Do you think God looks with more intent at the person with 100 prayers?

[Neighbor]

Good question! 

In a nutshell yes, I suppose do. From a human reasoning standpoint I think it (prayer)  pleases God and that 100 prayers pleases God one hundred fold.

Do I think in my own case, as example, that the prayers made daily and perhaps hourly for years to God about me pleased God? Yes! Could I have been foreknown and predestined to  be saved without a single prayer in my behalf ever? Yes! Is prayer then unimportant? No!

Prayer is vital, absolutely vital, as to whom or what prays that may be a different question,- thinking about God's accounting of his disciples being told not to pray and his saying:  “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.”

 From this context;..."Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen, saying: “ ‘Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord!’
Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” And some of the Pharisees called to Him from the crowd, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.”But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.”

All prayer gives God glory, it pleases Him and he is faithful to answer prayer "rightly" (Right motivation) asked. 

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

What if lost person

Interesting term that  Christians use, "Lost person".  Who is lost, if one cannot lose salvation?

Who is lost if all that are to be saved out from the wrath of God are foreknown, predestined, and given to Yehua who loses not a one  given Him by  His Father?

All are foreknown? All are predestined? Or; is it only so for those that will be with God eternally? Have all that will not be with God eternally also been foreknown and predestined?

What  little I do  know for certain is God called me. God called me  even though I did not know  he existed. He called me because of prayers from my grandparents. They had been long dead when he enacted the answer to their prayers. That I know for certain. It takes no faith on my part to know that. It is actual history that I have lived.

So do I live by sight and not by faith? No! I live by faith of Yeshua, believing in His work(s). God's will to answer prayers rightly asked is stronger than my denial of his existence ever was.

So I do believe in prayer to God to exercise His power over all matters, all things, all beings? May the prayer(s) please God, blessing God as he blesses those prayed for and about?  I Yes andYes I do believe it to be so, and have live dit for  over 40 years of my near 80 granted me  to serve Yeshua while in this fleshly body.

 

 

[Sower]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

So here's a hypothetical question. What if lost person A has noone to pray for them, lost person B has only one person praying for them, and lost person C has 100 people praying for them. Do you think God looks with more intent at the person with 100 prayers?

 

            "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much"

I cannot guess how many people over many many years I have ask to pray for God to help me quit smoking (for 51 yrs).
The last person came to me, yea, came to me, and ask if he could pray for me. He laid on hands and did.
Haven't smoked since. I never quit, as I couldn't. But I was delivered by God after a fervent petition by a brother.

So, for me, I would rather have that one faithful  brother pray over me than many ineffectual prayers.
But could be God's timing. I will also say I appreciate any and all prayers directed my way.

[Starise]

20 hours ago, Neighbor said:

In a nutshell yes, I suppose do. From a human reasoning standpoint I think it (prayer)  pleases God and that 100 prayers pleases God one hundred fold.

God surely likes our communication with Him as we are told He wants us to take our petitions to the throne. Can you think of a scripture where we are told expressly to pray for the lost...er unsaved? I know it's in there but can't immediately recall the passage.

We can say he likes our petitions, but is that assurance of an answer in our favor? IOW, He could say, I like that you are coming to me, but the answer is no. There are many things people pray about, jobs, money, health and so forth. Praying for lost...er unsaved sinners has a different dynamic in that free will is involved. Would you say your freewill was influenced by prayer?

20 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Do I think in my own case, as example, that the prayers made daily and perhaps hourly for years to God about me pleased God? Yes! Could I have been foreknown and predestined to  be saved without a single prayer in my behalf ever? Yes! Is prayer then unimportant? No!

You probably see the potential contradictory nature of this response? I can see the aspect of praise and worship in prayer, not under any answer demands and neutral as a result so far as looking for results. My mother prayed for years and years for my father to be saved. At the end of his life he claimed has was saved, but never attended church unless it was a request and a special occasion, so to this day I'm not really sure. Not that church attendence is a reliable litmus all the time.This was mostly one person praying for one person.

20 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Prayer is vital, absolutely vital, as to whom or what prays that may be a different question,- thinking about God's accounting of his disciples being told not to pray and his saying:  “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.”

I can't ever imagine not praying. I am in communication with God constantly. That last statement though, I mostly associate with praise. If we didn't praise Him the rocks would lift up their voices, which is probably that Jewish poetry again because rocks don't sing.

19 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Interesting term that  Christians use, "Lost person".  Who is lost, if one cannot lose salvation?

I take it you have a reformed background? I think I read some other stuff you posted that sounded like that. I was referring to those who have never been saved. "Saved" was the most common term used where I came from to refer to a believer, a Christian. So it only stood to reason, if a person isn't saved they are lost. I don't believe we have precident for anyone being lost once saved in the bible. God does the saving once saved. To save is to keep. Many will claim they are saved when they are not saved.

The prodical son was lost but never unsaved. He was always the son of his father and always maintained that standing, even in his rebellion.

19 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Who is lost if all that are to be saved out from the wrath of God are foreknown, predestined, and given to Yehua who loses not a one  given Him by  His Father?

All are foreknown? All are predestined? Or; is it only so for those that will be with God eternally? Have all that will not be with God eternally also been foreknown and predestined?

Jesus said He came here to His own people and we have proof of that in the first 4 books of the New Testament and part of the 5th.That was all written to the Jewish people. Jesus was predestined to minister to His people. In Acts, Peter and Paul were predestined to minister to the Gentile people. Everyone is predestined to have the opportnity to be saved and the way that message comes to them is predestined. Otherwise the bible would not say everyone had the oppotunity.Not one person will stand before the Lord with an excuse. There will be no excuses. Predestination is different than foreknowledge.

19 hours ago, Neighbor said:

What  little I do  know for certain is God called me. God called me  even though I did not know  he existed. He called me because of prayers from my grandparents. They had been long dead when he enacted the answer to their prayers. That I know for certain. It takes no faith on my part to know that. It is actual history that I have lived.

So do I live by sight and not by faith? No! I live by faith of Yeshua, believing in His work(s). God's will to answer prayers rightly asked is stronger than my denial of his existence ever was.

So I do believe in prayer to God to exercise His power over all matters, all things, all beings? May the prayer(s) please God, blessing God as he blesses those prayed for and about?  I Yes andYes I do believe it to be so, and have live dit for  over 40 years of my near 80 granted me  to serve Yeshua while in this fleshly body.

Yes, I think God calls all of us to salvation. We are told to pray without ceasing, but pray for what and for who and why? Just picking your brain here if you don't mind 

 

 

[Starise]

34 minutes ago, Sower said:

       "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much"

I cannot guess how many people over many many years I have ask to pray for God to help me quit smoking (for 51 yrs).
The last person came to me, yea, came to me, and ask if he could pray for me. He laid on hands and did.
Haven't smoked since. I never quit, as I couldn't. But I was delivered by God after a fervent petition by a brother.

So, for me, I would rather have that one faithful  brother pray over me than many ineffectual prayers.
But could be God's timing. I will also say I appreciate any and all prayers directed my way.

Amen!

Vices of any kind are tough to quit and sometimes impossible all depending. 

Prayers in the Christian community are almost like handshakes sometimes. When they take prayer lists and ask for prayer, it's up to the individual to apply themselves to it, and since all of us only have so much time, it often ends up being those closest to use who do the most praying. I must have had 400 people across two churches and people here on Worthy praying for God to heal my health issues which are probably fatal if He doesn't. So far the only apparent things I've seen are what the docs have done which has helped greatly, but certainly not a true healing, like zero signs of what ailed me.

And yes, that one dedicated person praying I think means much .

What do you think about prayers for God to make a person feel like He heard him or her" In other words, prayers that ask for God to do something to show that He is listening? As believers we mostly know he's listening, but sometimes I think a little extra lift would be helpful. Let's face it, we have creation all around us but what I want is God, in person. How do you see that? He is obviously in Heaven but can send us comforts. Have you had any such comforts?

 

[Neighbor]

13 hours ago, Starise said:

Can you think of a scripture where we are told expressly to pray for the lost...er unsaved?

Might consider 1 Timothy 2 pretty much  in it's entirety. 

Also our Lord's message even while suffering the cross' sting "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" as an example.

Luke 10:2 is one and is rather direct in it's instruction.

Though it is lengthy, may I encourage a reading through of Spurgeon's sermon https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/sermons/the-wailing-of-risca/#flipbook/ as a motivator to us all; for the uncertainty of what even today may bring is reason to urgently pray for all to  come to Jesus  now.

 

[Starise]

3 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Might consider 1 Timothy 2 pretty much  in it's entirety. 

Also our Lord's message even while suffering the cross' sting "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" as an example.

Luke 10:2 is one and is rather direct in it's instruction.

Though it is lengthy, may I encourage a reading through of Spurgeon's sermon https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/sermons/the-wailing-of-risca/#flipbook/ as a motivator to us all; for the uncertainty of what even today may bring is reason to urgently pray for all to  come to Jesus  now.

 

Thanks @Neighbor I wasn't at liberty to find exact references yesterday. I'll post a portion of 1 Timothy 2.

2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

 

Salvation and coming to the knowledge of the truth which come from supplications, prayers and intercessions, are the key components I picked out. I suppose healing could be a component of "supplications" but I don't see prayer for healing expressly mentioned here. Sop do we collectively pray for "all men' or do we have only some men we pray for? The text has us praying for all men, but brings out men in authority.

God "would have" all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. God wants all men and women to come on board. It is His desire.

In praying, we are agreeing with God in wanting all to be saved.

Spurgeon was a man mightily used of God. His words paint a picture of both Joy and sorrow as in a passage from your link will tell-

But what must be the change to the unconverted man? His joys are over for ever. His death is the death of his happiness—his funeral is the funeral of his mirth. He has just risen from his cups; he has another cup to drain, which is full of bitterness. He has just listened to the sound of the harp and the viol, and the music of them that make merry; an eternal dirge greets his ears, mixed with the doleful chorus of the shrieks of damned souls. What horror and surprise shall seize upon him! "Good God," he says, "I thought it was not so, but lo, it is. What the minister said to me is true; the things I would not believe are at last really so." When the poor soul shall find itself in the hands of angry fiends, and lifts up his eyes in hell, being in torments so hot, so feverish, so thirsy, that it shall seem in that first moment as though it had been athirst for a million years, what will be his surprise! "And am I," he will say, "really here? I was in the streets of London but a minute ago; I was singing a song but an instant before, and here am I in hell! What! so soon damned? Is the sentence of God like a lightning-flash? Does it so instantaneously rive the spirit and destroy its joys? Am I really here?" And when the soul has convinced itself that it is actually in hell, can you imagine next the overwhelming horror that will roll over it. It, too, will be stunned with a mighty flood, not with a flood of glory but with a flood of anger, of wrath, of divine justice. Oh! how the spirit is tormented now—tormented beyond thought. And then at last, when the wave recedes a moment, and there is a pause, what black despair shall then seize upon the spirit! Have you ever seen men die without a hope? I read but yesterday a case of a young woman who had procrastinated many times, and at last whe was told by the physician that within nine hours he really believed she would be a corpse. Then, when death really became a matter of fact to her, she rose up in the bed upon which she had been laid by the sudden stroke of God, and she prayed—prayed till she fell back fainting, and her lips were livid and her cheek was pale, while she cried, "God be merciful to me a sinner." Friends talked to her, consoled and comforted her, and bade her trust in Christ; but she said, "It is of no use for you to comfort me; no, it is too late. I made a fatal resolve some months ago that I would again enjoy the world, and that resolve destroyed by soul." And then she rose up in bed again, with eyes starting from their sockets, and prayed again till she was breathless, and groaned and cried, and fell down again in a faint, needing to be restored once more. And so she did, till with ghastly look—an awful look of horror—as though she felt the anguish of another world, she expired.

 

 

[Neighbor]

"Expired" now there is a word I haven't heard used in regard to death for decades. 

Not a whole lot of Spurgeon gets recited at funerals I suppose. Perhaps I just don't remember it, but I think I would have remembered that one if it had been used at any of the few thousands of funerals I worked.

Do we pray for all individuals?  Well, how will I make judgement as to whom not to pray  for regarding salvation when my Lord Yeshua upped the ante by stating “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,  that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.  For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?  And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?  Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Does that mean I pray only a cursory blanket prayer, a generality, even in the face of specific needs of which I am made aware?  No I don't think so.  

I do gain extra sensitivity brought about by knowledge of a need; and so I do think  I do not just share in general nor give, nor pray, only in general, in an abstract form of love of mankind. Instead I find  I am led to ways of sharing  or giving  and praying more directly, to be  addressing a specific need for which I have been made aware by God.  And so I also do not pray  in only a general sense of petitioning before God for people in general.

 

[Starise]

On 9/2/2023 at 10:35 AM, Neighbor said:

"Expired" now there is a word I haven't heard used in regard to death for decades. 

Not a whole lot of Spurgeon gets recited at funerals I suppose. Perhaps I just don't remember it, but I think I would have remembered that one if it had been used at any of the few thousands of funerals I worked.

That particular passage I quoted sounds more like something Steven King would write.

On prayer- Prayer seems to be one of the most blind acts of faith any believer can engage in. To pray for a person, sometimes a person who hates us, with sincere caring. Often times no results in sight. We know on who we believe though, and with Him there are no limits.

Recently a nephew died of alchohol overdose, and it sure seems as if he died unsaved. He was an all around good guy, who made some very bad choices. We were told he said he seen a man standing at a doorway right before he died. What that means is beyond me. It was suggested it was the drugs he was on at the hospital. Whenever I mention hell my wife doesn't want to hear it because she fears he is in hell.

Once I was praying in my bedroom years ago, and something knocked on my bed like the way a person would knock on a door. I never found any rhyme or reason for any of it, and I guess you could say I was testing God not long ago and I asked Him to knock on my bed because I felt something like that would greatly boost my low state at the time. I asked till I was blue in the face and it never happened.Remember Gideon left of a fleece and made similar requests of God which were honored, although in that case it was concerning a decision. Do you feel making those kinds of requests is sinful, or shows a lack of faith?  

For me, It was more like an affirmation for something I already believed in. The fact that it didn't happen gives me the impression that God wasn't happy with my request.