The 7th Trump is the Last Trump

[DeighAnn]

1 minute ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Not according to the revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show his servants.

 

I guess Paul was working with what he had to work with but John was given far more to work with after Paul was dead.

Jesus didn't share revelation with everyone.

 

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

All false constructs of end time events violates what Paul says- They all have multiple resurrections for different groupings  of saints whether they be called OT saints, NT saints Tribulation saints but it is impossible to have ALL THE SAINTS return with Christ unless all are resurrected and raptured on the last day..

if you break it up into different groupings you MUST have multiple raptures as well or they can’t get up there to heaven to come down with him.

Pre trib is just one example but because they do not include OT saints in their pre trib resurrection they have them resurrected at the end of the tribulation.. but they do not have a RAPTURE for them so IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for them to come down from heaven with the other saints BECAUSE THEY NEVER GOT UP THERE..

For all the saints to return they all have to be raptured up there .. JUST BEING RESURRECTED does not mean you ascend up.. pre trib does not have living tribulation saints changed at all IN TOTAL VIOLATION OF WHAT PAUL SAID THAT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED..

It is just as impossible for you to have different groupings of saints resurrected at different times and not also have two raptures for all the saints to return with Jesus ..

You say there is a select group that gets resurrected at a different time than the rest of the world.. so you now have to add another rapture to get them up to heaven so they can return with Jesus.. one error leads to another.. instead of all the dead in Christ rising at the last trump you have to violate Paul again because now all are not changed at the last trump.. ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP- There are no other saint to change at a different time IF ALL ARE CHANGED THEN.

pre trib has their “select group” which are dubbed “church age saints” who lived from Pentecost to sometime before the tribulation.. What does that mean? IT MEANS ONLY this specific grouping of saints who lived from Pentecost till before the tribulation can come back with Jesus. How is this so? BECAUSE ONLY THAT SPECIFIC GROUP WAS RAPTURED UP TO HEAVEN.. no OT saints or trib saints can come back with Jesus BECAUSE THEY WERE NEVER RAPTURED UP THERE - IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR ALL THE SAINTS TO RETURN WITH JESUS IN A PRE TRIB SCENARIO..

 The reason I am using pre trib as an example is you are breaking up groupings of saints into categories in the same way which makes it impossible for you to fulfill the criteria that all must be changed at the same time and all must return with Jesus…

The ONLY construct in which this criteria can be met is if ALL are changed on The day of the Lord at one time, and all are raptured at one time and all return with Jesus at one time..

BUT THAT CONSTRUCT HAS

The decay inheriting immortality.  Yet we know that doesn't happen by 1 Corinth 15

Those who were already raised up and who have returned with him descending into the decay to be raised up from it again.  

And the real dead still be under the earth so no one on the earth but those already immortal and living so no one to rule and reign over

And no way for the REAL DEAD to work to get their names in the book of life

how do those cease to be a conflict or problem? 

 

[Shilohsfoal]

41 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Paul was the wise master builder who laid the foundation and there is no other foundation but what he laid..

  Paul said if we or an angels from preach anything different than what we have already preached to you let him be accursed..

We are built on the foundation of apostles and prophets, Jesus being the chief cornerstone.. John does not disagree with Paul.. ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD AND IS PROFITABLE FOR REPROOF FOR CORRECTION FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUS THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE PERFECT THOROUGHLY FURNISHED TO ALL GOOD WORKS.

 

You are saved IF you keep in memory what he preached

And you are not only denying what Paul preached you are denying what Zech 14:5 said that the lord my God would come and all the saints with thee..

You are following in the same steps as pre trib, Preterism, mid trib as they ALL DENY WHAT PAUL PREACHED  

He said every man should take heed HOW he builds on this foundation- Not WHETHER HE CHOOSES to build on this foundation.

ALL WILL BE CHANGED AG THE LAST TRUMP .. 

pre trib believes only those that live from Pentecost to before the tribulation will return with Jesus.. It will never happen that way 

You believe there is a separate resurrection for a select group as well- IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN…ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT HAPPEN 

You reject what Paul preached you are rejecting the wise MASTER BUILDER.. The gospel certified and that was given to him by revelation..

Your construct does not fit Paul or John or the prophets.. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY IN ERROR TO REJECT WHAG HE SAID.

 

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

Jesus gave John a job of writing  the book of prophecy.

Where did Jesus instruct Paul to write a book of prophecy?

Edited September 25, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[Shilohsfoal]

19 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 

BUT THAT CONSTRUCT HAS

The decay inheriting immortality.  Yet we know that doesn't happen by 1 Corinth 15

Those who were already raised up and who have returned with him descending into the decay to be raised up from it again.  

And the real dead still be under the earth so no one on the earth but those already immortal and living so no one to rule and reign over

And no way for the REAL DEAD to work to get their names in the book of life

how do those cease to be a conflict or problem? 

 

Perhaps it would be best if you backed up a little of what you say with scripture.

Point by point.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

The decay inheriting immortality

When he said flesh  and blood or corruption not inheriting incorruption he is meaning an un- regenerated man -one who is in the flesh or is in sin will not get an incorruptible body.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Yet we know that doesn't happen by 1 Corinth 15

Both the living and the dead will put on immortality and this corruptible body shall put on incorruption at the last trump

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Those who were already raised up

He said the dead in Christ will raise at the last trump- they aren’t already risen or they wouldn’t  be rising at the last trump

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

and who have returned with him descending into the decay to be raised up from it again

 NO body has returned with him yet- That is what will happen at the second coming- all the dead in Christ will rise to heaven and then return with Christ to the earth.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And the real dead still be under the earth

Multitudes sleeping in the dust of the earth will arise.. there are no more dead people anywhere.. these all rise at the second coming - some to life and some to damnation

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

so no one on the earth but those already immortal and living so no one to rule and reign over

The existing nations convert at the second coming - all kingdoms shall serve and obey him.. when you read these scriptures you have to BELIEVE THEM

We will rule and reign with Christ as kings and priests for 1000 years 
When Jesus comes it says he will smite the nations and rule them with a rod of iron.. IN OTHER WORDS HE DOES NOT KILL EVERYBODY - HE REBUKES THEM AND THEY REPENT AND WE RULE OVER THESE  NATIONS WHO ARE STILL IN NATURAL BODIES

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And no way for the REAL DEAD to work to get their names in the book of life

If your name was not written in the book of life before you died you will have no opportunity to get it in later.. all whose names was not written in the book of like was cast into the lake of fire..

[transmogrified]

What happens is people get to the scripture saying we shall all be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump and:

THEY JUST DONT BELIEVE IT!! SO THEY  ENTER THE ENCHANTED FOREST OF MULTIPLE RESURRECTIONS FOR DIFFERENT GROUPINGS OF SAINTS IN WHICH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FIR  ALL THE SAINTS TO RETURN WITH CHRIST WITHOUT MULTIPLE RAPTURES, AND MULTIPLE RESURRECTIONS,AND MULTIPLE TIMES - AND MULTIPLE TRUMPETS ALL IN VIOLATION OF WHAT PAUL PLAINLY STATED!!!!

 

[DeighAnn]

38 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

When he said flesh  and blood or corruption not inheriting incorruption he is meaning an un- regenerated man -one who is in the flesh or is in sin will not get an incorruptible body.

The entire chapter is about REAL death and resurrection and real bodies and what does and what doesn't take place.  No one is speaking to whether men are regenerated or not. 

That would be an incredible strange place to suddenly go in that direction and then suddenly leave it. 

Time was shortened or else NO FLESH would be saved aka NO ONE even alive and remaining.  

So who are these in flesh or sin are you talking about.  We are told of the tares being gathered and burned, the vine of the earth going into the wine press and ALL FLESH from kings on down to slaves having their flesh eaten by birds.  

When Christ returns everyone will have either taken the mark of the beast or not.  Do you believe that someone could take the mark of the beast and not suffer the first death when Christ returns?  If they don't die then those with the mark of the beast would receive immortality, wouldn't they?  

 

41 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Both the living and the dead will put on immortality and this corruptible body shall put on incorruption at the last trump

It says the decay will rise and put on IMPERISHABLE and nothing else.  

And the dead have NOTHING to do with those who won't die.   

There isn't even a mystery about the dead rising.  It was a well known fact the dead would rise.  So they have nothing to do with the MYSTERY in that way either. 
 

all not will die however all will be changed. 

That is about a very specific group and a very specific action taking place upon that group.  

THERE ISN'T A SINGLE WORD THERE THAT ADDS THE DEAD to them.   THE DEAD ARE DEAD SO so they can't be of 'all not will die' nor 'all will be changed'


 

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

He said the dead in Christ will raise at the last trump- they aren’t already risen or they wouldn’t  be rising at the last trump

He returns with all the Holy Saints.  And those with the gift of salvation can't be the dead because they never die.   
 

"To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints." 1 Thessalonians 3:13 KJV

in Christ or not, they are the DEAD in Christ not the LIVING or the NEVER DIE in Christ.  The having received the gift are RETURNING HAVING already been raised up.  

 

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

The existing nations convert at the second coming - all kingdoms shall serve and obey him.. when you read these scriptures you have to BELIEVE THEM

We will rule and reign with Christ as kings and priests for 1000 years 
When Jesus comes it says he will smite the nations and rule them with a rod of iron.. IN OTHER WORDS HE DOES NOT KILL EVERYBODY - HE REBUKES THEM AND THEY REPENT AND WE RULE OVER THESE  NATIONS WHO ARE STILL IN NATURAL BODIES

THAT ISN'T WHAT IS WRITTEN AT ALL.   AND YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THEM not make assumptions and believe those.  

all FLESH that is ALIVE AND REMAINING IS CHANGED SO ALL FLESH THAT DOESN'T RECEIVE IMMORTALITY has to be dead.


NO FLESH AND BLOOD IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.  Remember what happened the LAST TIME angels and humans were on the earth?  Think God is going to let that happen for 1000 years? 



"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Revelation 12:9 KJV
 

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9If any man have an ear, let him hear.

 

2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

3And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

"And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God." Revelation 14:19 KJV


"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:30 KJV|


 

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

33When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

What happens is people get to the scripture saying we shall all be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump and:

THEY JUST DONT BELIEVE IT!! SO THEY  ENTER THE ENCHANTED FOREST OF MULTIPLE RESURRECTIONS FOR DIFFERENT GROUPINGS OF SAINTS IN WHICH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FIR  ALL THE SAINTS TO RETURN WITH CHRIST WITHOUT MULTIPLE RAPTURES, AND MULTIPLE RESURRECTIONS,AND MULTIPLE TIMES - AND MULTIPLE TRUMPETS ALL IN VIOLATION OF WHAT PAUL PLAINLY STATED!!!!

 

God of the LIVING AND NOT THE DEAD.  



 

36Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

37Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

38Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself;

that where I am, there ye may be also.

4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Where did Jesus instruct Paul to write a book of prophecy?

Whoever receives what Christ said receives God - whoever receives who Christ sends receives Christ

Jesus sent Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles - 

the prophesy over Paul:

And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
That he should what? KNOW HIS WILL..What else? THAT HE WOULD HEAR THE VOICE  OF HIS MOUTH… 

Did he hear the voice of his mouth? Absolutely. He was not taught it by men nor did he receive it from men BUT BY THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.. 

He reproved the Galatians with just as much apostolic authority as when John reproved the seven churches… He got his gospel by revelation just as much as God revealed himself to John on the Isle of Patmos- God did not tell John something and then tell Paul something else.

God reveals to John things that were not shown to John and absolutely vice versa.

The American Holy Ghost that inspired Paul to write inspired John to write..

 In other words Goddid not inspire Paul to write we shall be changed at the last trump and then tell John all would not be changed at the last trump.

What we are talking about is THE SECOND COMING… Of course there is another resurrection for those who live and die during the 1000 years … but these two resurrections cannot be mixed together because THE ONE AT THE END OF THE 1000 YEARS DIES PERTAIN TO A DIFFERENT SET OF PEOPLE AT A DIFFERENT TIME.

HOWEVER just as the resurrection at the end of the thousand years pertains to a grouping of people that lived and during the thousand years, the resurrection at the second coming pertains to people from Adam till he comes.

Paul saying the last trump clarifies beyond question what resurrection he is referring to when we know there is no trumpet sounding at the end of the thousand years nor would it correlate with anything to do with the second coming as Jesus does not come at the end of the thousand years.

What Paul and Daniel and John are saying is that at the seventh trumpet is the TIME OF THE DEAD THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED..

OF COURSE THIS WOULD NOT PERTAIN TO PEOPLE THAT LIVE DURING THE FOLLOWING THOUSAND YEARS BUT RATHER THE THOSE WHO HAVE DIED UP TO THAT POINT.

God revealed things to the apostles that were not known in previous ages.. Paul said he would come to visions and revelations of the Lord.. ABSOLUTELY JUST AS VALID AS JOHNS REVELATIONS.

  He said BEHILD I SHOW YOU A MYSTERY— IN OTHER WORDS THIS WAS SOMETHING God showed him that was previously not known- And what was this that was revealed to him? 
WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED IN A MOMENT IN A TWINKLE  OF AN EYE AT THE LAST TRUMP - No  one knew that before it was revealed to him anymore than no one knew there would be 144000 of the tribes of Israel.

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

[transmogrified]

20 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

God of the LIVING AND NOT THE DEAD

None of your scriptures disprove what Paul said.. How could they? The same God who inspired Matthew Mark and John to write inspired Paul  to write.

All will be changed at the last trump and yes God is not a God of the dead but of of the living..

 

[Shilohsfoal]

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Whoever receives what Christ said receives God - whoever receives who Christ sends receives Christ

Jesus sent Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles - 

the prophesy over Paul:

And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
That he should what? KNOW HIS WILL..What else? THAT HE WOULD HEAR THE VOICE  OF HIS MOUTH… 

Did he hear the voice of his mouth? Absolutely. He was not taught it by men nor did he receive it from men BUT BY THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.. 

He reproved the Galatians with just as much apostolic authority as when John reproved the seven churches… He got his gospel by revelation just as much as God revealed himself to John on the Isle of Patmos- God did not tell John something and then tell Paul something else.

God reveals to John things that were not shown to John and absolutely vice versa.

The American Holy Ghost that inspired Paul to write inspired John to write..

 In other words Goddid not inspire Paul to write we shall be changed at the last trump and then tell John all would not be changed at the last trump.

What we are talking about is THE SECOND COMING… Of course there is another resurrection for those who live and die during the 1000 years … but these two resurrections cannot be mixed together because THE ONE AT THE END OF THE 1000 YEARS DIES PERTAIN TO A DIFFERENT SET OF PEOPLE AT A DIFFERENT TIME.

HOWEVER just as the resurrection at the end of the thousand years pertains to a grouping of people that lived and during the thousand years, the resurrection at the second coming pertains to people from Adam till he comes.

Paul saying the last trump clarifies beyond question what resurrection he is referring to when we know there is no trumpet sounding at the end of the thousand years nor would it correlate with anything to do with the second coming as Jesus does not come at the end of the thousand years.

What Paul and Daniel and John are saying is that at the seventh trumpet is the TIME OF THE DEAD THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED..

OF COURSE THIS WOULD NOT PERTAIN TO PEOPLE THAT LIVE DURING THE FOLLOWING THOUSAND YEARS BUT RATHER THE THOSE WHO HAVE DIED UP TO THAT POINT.

God revealed things to the apostles that were not known in previous ages.. Paul said he would come to visions and revelations of the Lord.. ABSOLUTELY JUST AS VALID AS JOHNS REVELATIONS.

  He said BEHILD I SHOW YOU A MYSTERY— IN OTHER WORDS THIS WAS SOMETHING God showed him that was previously not known- And what was this that was revealed to him? 
WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED IN A MOMENT IN A TWINKLE  OF AN EYE AT THE LAST TRUMP - No  one knew that before it was revealed to him anymore than no one knew there would be 144000 of the tribes of Israel.

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

You didn't show me where Paul's book of prophecy is.Ive already showed you where to find John's.

 

Revelation 10:11

And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

 

Now where was Paul told to prophesy?Where is the book he was instructed to write?

 

john 21:22

Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

Facts are facts.Jesus waited till all the apostles were dead except John ,then he gave John a job to do other than preaching the gospel.Jesus didn't instruct the other apostles to write a book of prophecy,only John.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Shilohsfoal