The Problem With Evolution Part 2- Animals

[Sparks]

1 minute ago, Scott Free said:

Do not wish to reiterate the points. It would get very tedious combing through the minutia of a history lesson. I am not seeking validation, only correction to sublimate my opinions. I am not trying to build you up. I want to be torn down to see what remains. 

You will have to answer basic questions, then, instead of avoiding them.  I think you already know you cannot make your point.

[Scott Free]

17 minutes ago, Sparks said:

You will have to answer basic questions, then, instead of avoiding them.  I think you already know you cannot make your point.

I am enjoying our discourse. Will be happy to respond to a specific question. If I have to lay down in detail the history of Christian natural theology first, why should I want to go down an arduous trial where I have to debate in circles every step of the way my friend?   

Edited September 23, 2023 by Scott Free

[Sparks]

44 minutes ago, Scott Free said:

I am enjoying our discourse. Will be happy to respond to a specific question. If I have to lay down in detail the history of Christian natural theology first, why should I want to go down an arduous trial where I have to debate in circles every step of the way my friend?   

You don't have to go in circles, you simply have to make your point.   You are reluctant to do so.

[Scott Free]

1 hour ago, Sparks said:

You don't have to go in circles, you simply have to make your point.   You are reluctant to do so.

I already answered the question: where did Christians of the past get incorrect worldviews of nature from the Bible? I offer a new point: through our fear campaigns and mode of conflict we help define, strengthen and establish the very things we fight against.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Scott Free

[Scott Free]

1 hour ago, Sparks said:

You don't have to go in circles, you simply have to make your point.   You are reluctant to do so

I just realized, this conversation might be counter productive. I am not trying to knock your faith in God or the Bible. Just like to promote humility as taught in 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 (mostly for my own rectification). I need to find a Faith friendly way to do so. Thanks for your help.  

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears." 1 Corinthians 13:9-10

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Scott Free

[The Barbarian]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

"Evolution" is defined as "any change in the heritable traits within a population across generations." Nevertheless, there's no proof that this variation extends beyond the borders of the created "kinds"

Your fellow YE creationist, Dr. Kurt Wise admits that the fossil evidence for such evolution is "very good."   And he actually knows the evidence.

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

We don't know how many of these "kinds" there were originally, but the Creationist believes in a genetic "orchard," rather than a single, genetic "tree."

So did Darwin; he supposed that there might have been a number of initially created kinds.   Genetics has shown that belief to be false.   And we know that works, because we can test it on organisms of known descent.

Keep in mind, evolutionists are perfectly O.K. with God's word in Genesis.   Those of us who are believers accept that He created all the existing taxa.   We just accept the way He did it as well.

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The first point assumes death already occurs among individuals. However, the Scriptures tell us that death didn't occur until after the Fall; that is, death is the RESULT of the sin that mankind performed against God's command and nature suffered for their sin, since the man was given dominion over all the rest.

That belief depends on a basic error.   God told Adam that he would die the day he ate from the tree.   Adam ate from the tree, but lived on physically for many years thereafter.   If God tells the truth, then the death Adam brought into the world was not a physical death.

If you deny the fact, it won't necessarily cost you your salvation.   Creationists are no less Christians than the rest of us.    But why not just accept it God's way?

 

 

[The Barbarian]

17 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The study of how cells and viruses work is not dependent on molecules-to-man sophistry.  Biology is the study of living things.  Unprovable theories of origin are just distractions.

This brings up an important point.  Evolution is not the origin of life.  Even Darwin just supposed that God created the first living things.   "Molecules to man" is the invention of one of the weirder professional creationists.   It has no meaning in science.

However, God does tell us that the Earth brought forth living things, which is what the evidence we have also indicates.    Yes, there are creationists who think God would be unable to create a world that would produce all the diversity of living things naturally.   But His word and the available evidence indicates that He is indeed that powerful.

 

[JimmyB]

I haven't read this entire post, nor even a large part of it.

The subject is the theory of evolution.  It is a scientific theory, a set of propositions that seek to explain a particular phenomenon or set of facts. A theory can be tested and shown to be accurate or modified as the evidence requires. 

There is clearly enough evidence to give credence to this theory, which seeks to explain how biological populations evolve through genetic changes that correspond to changes in the organisms' observable traits.  The four key points of Darwin's Theory of Evolution are: 1) individuals of a species are not identical; traits are passed from generation to generation; 2) more offspring are born than can survive; and 3) only the survivors of the competition for resources will reproduce.

This in now way conflicts with the account of God's creation in Genesis.  

Genesis 1:11-12, "Then God said, “Let the earth put forth vegetation: plants yielding seed and fruit trees of every kind on earth that bear fruit with the seed in it.” And it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation: plants yielding seed of every kind and trees of every kind bearing fruit with the seed in it. And God saw that it was good."  Notice that there are plants yielding seed and trees that bear fruit.  There is no indication that seed-bearing plants became trees or vice versa.

Genesis 1:20-22, "And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky.” So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm and every winged bird of every kind. And God saw that it was good. God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.”  There is no indication sea creatures became birds or vice-versa.

Genesis 1:24-25, "And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures of every kind: cattle and creeping things and wild animals of the earth of every kind.” And it was so. God made the wild animals of the earth of every kind and the cattle of every kind and everything that creeps upon the ground of every kind. And God saw that it was good."  There is no indication cattle became animals that creep along the ground or wild animals.

Members of most species evolve in order to adapt to a changing environment, but some fail. 

In summary, the scientific theory of evolution is not in conflict with the accounts of creation in Genesis.

[JimmyB]

I am prevented by the forum administrators from changing something I have already posted.  Apparently they thought that I would edit the post to alter what I wrote earlier to mean something different.  For the record, that was never my intention.  Editing means altering such things as misspellings, errors of punctuation, or, in the case, faulty numbering. But I digress...

In my previous post, I wrote "The four key points of Darwin's Theory of Evolution are: 1) individuals of a species are not identical; traits are passed from generation to generation; 2) more offspring are born than can survive; and 3) only the survivors of the competition for resources will reproduce."  But I numbered them incorrectly.

Here is the correct version; The four key points of Darwin's Theory of Evolution are: 1) individuals of a species are not identical; 2) traits are passed from generation to generation; 3) more offspring are born than can survive; and 4) only the survivors of the competition for resources will reproduce.

So, I haven't changed the content, merely corrected numbering.  Big deal!!!

[JimmyB]

I should have typed "in this case", not "in the case".  Again, I am correcting grammar, not changing the meaning.  But because of the restriction placed on me by the administrators, I have to make multiple posts to correct simple grammatical mistakes.  It's a waste of your time and mine!