A Concern for Applying the Bible to the Natural Sciences

[The Barbarian]

By definition, literal mornings and evenings require a sun to have them.    There was no sun the first three "days."

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

By whose definition?

English and Hebrew.   Would you like me to show you why yet again?

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Did God create light on day one, or do you deny that?

If "big light in the sky" is morning than moonrise would be morning.   There's really no way for you to turn this around to fit your new doctrines.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

You DO realize the earth rotates, right

Technically, it rotates left from the customary orientation.   Thought you knew.   You make a hobby of misrepresenting and misquoting the Bible, so I guess it's not surprising that you get other stuff wrong.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Augustine, a former gnostic,

Your guys goofed there, too.   In his youth, Augustine was a Manichaean, not a Gnostic.    You need to be more careful about your sources.   Rookie error, that.

He is respected as a theologian by all three major branches of Christianity:
Augustine is recognized as a saint in the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Lutheran churches and the Anglican Communion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

It's entirely fitting that Augustine is your hero.

Well, he was wrong about some things.   His ideas on grace, for example, led to Calvin's notion of Predestination and denial of free will.   Augustine, of course, never denied that humans have free will, but his ideas on grace led Calvin in the wrong direction.  

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

He is the father of heresy.

That's amusing, given that St. Augustine was quite effective in debating heretics and upholding Christian orthodoxy.    

St Augustine: Hammer of Heretics

In the late fourth century St Augustine was coping with the mixed blessing of the Christian Church becoming the established religion of the Roman Empire.

As a theologian, philosopher and bishop it fell to him to correct three particular heresies which were infesting the church at the time, and all three were the result of the church becoming established. As it became the established religion these three heresies grew like an ugly cancer as a result of the church’s establishment.

The first heresy is one that Augustine himself fell into in his youth. It was Manichaeanism. Manichaenism was the brainchild of a Persian teacher Mani in the third century. He blended strains of Judaism occult teaching with Christianity and Zoroastrianism. Other mystical gnostic teaching also crept in from the various gnostic sects.

Manichaeism had two problems. First it was syncretistic. It was a blend or mish-mash of various philosophies, occult practices, theologies and worldview. As the old paganism was dying this seemed a sophisticated and attractive religion. The cities of the Roman Empire were sophisticated, cosmopolitan places with travelers from many countries meeting and mixing. This blended religion was therefore attractive to people who wanted to be open minded, but engaged in religion and involved in a high philosophy and occult practices. It seemed to gather what was best from the old paganism with what was best from Judaism and Christianity.

Secondly, Manichaeism was dualistic. Physical world was bad. Spiritual world was good. This is also an easy religious mistake to make. In fact, if you were inventing a religion it is exactly the mistake you would make. However, Christianity with its doctrine of the Incarnation refuses to go there. We do not teach that the physical world is bad and the spiritual realm is good. Both are good because God not only created both. He deemed to take on physical flesh himself from his Blessed Mother.

Manichaeism is, of course, every present today with the tendency towards the wrong kind inter-faith relationships, New Age beliefs and a general “I’m spiritual but not religious” mentality. This sentimentalism and syncretism is always deadly fro authentic Christianity because it now only waters down the faith, it assumes that Christianity is simply one religion among many and puts Christianity on an equal footing with every other religion. This, however, is obvious nonsense for anyone who has taken a moment to think things through.

https://dwightlongenecker.com/st-augustine-hammer-of-heretics/

As I said, be careful who you tout as a source.   It's good, sometimes to go check stuff before you present it to others.   It saves me a lot of embarrassment.    Might work for you, too.

Edited February 11 by The Barbarian

[RV_Wizard]

30 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

If "big light in the sky" is morning than moonrise would be morning.

You really DO have a comprehension issue, don't you?

Try to follow with me.  Day one.  Earth is created.  God said "Let there be light."  Light was created.  Shiny thing lights up the earth.  Earth goes roundy-round.  Day one.  Earth goes roundy-round again.  Day two.  Earth goes roundy round again.  Day three.  God creates the moon and stars, and positions the sun (which He may have already created on day one, since it fits the bill of providing light perfectly).  Now, pay close attention.  Before day four, THERE WAS NO MOON.  Was there a sun?  SOMETHING was providing light on the earth.  God didn't call the light any name but light.

Even if you went from moonrise to moonrise, it's still a day.  Not a million years, but a day.  Night follows day.  Million year days have million year nights.  There is no way to contort the Scriptures to allow for your religion; evolution.

30 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Well, he was wrong about some things. 

He taught things as Scriptural that had no basis whatever in the Scriptures.  We call that heresy.  I gave you a long list of his heresies; many of which are still taught as if they were true.  For example, he didn't accept that Jesus had half brothers and sisters from His mother Mary and her husband, Joseph.  His half brothers were James, Joses, Simon and Jude.  He had half sisters as well, but their names are not mentioned.  Augustine contended that Mary was always a virgin, and worthy of prayers as an intercessor.  That is not what Christ taught.  Christ taught to pray to the Father, not to anyone/ anything else in Heaven or on earth.

[Scott Free]

8 hours ago, Tristen said:

On one hand, you appeal to everyone to be more flexible (or less inflexible) in our positions - because none of us has all the information.

It is said, being wise is not about knowing everything, it is sustained by acknowledging the limits of what we know.

Edited February 11 by Scott Free

[Scott Free]

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Earth goes roundy-round again.

The Bible does not teach that the Earth orbits the Sun or that it rotates. I don't believe you.

Edited February 11 by Scott Free

[RdJ]

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Yeah, that's Henry Morris, alright.   He wrote that in a creationist book The Beginning of the World. (back in 1999, I think)

He co-founded the Institute for Creation Research.    One of the founders of YE creationism in evangelicals.    His guru was SDA missionary George McCreedy Price.

Oh goodness. I only heard about that other guy, John C. Whitcomb.

 

[FJK]

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The devil is a deceiver and will deceive you straight into Hell for necromancy.

Where does Necromancy come into it?

Necromancy is useless since the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

 

[RV_Wizard]

7 hours ago, Scott Free said:

The Bible does not teach that the Earth orbits the Sun or that it rotates. I don't believe you.

Semi-correct, and yet ludicrous.  The Bible describes neither the earth's rotation nor its orbit, but we do see sunrise, sunset and changes in seasons.  It was for us to later discover why there is day and night.  You're making the same sophomoric argument that one must reject observable science to believe in the creation as described by God.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The actions of God are supernatural.  If God decides tomorrow to reverse the rotation of the earth, He can do so without consequence.  With science this is not possible, but with God, all things are possible.

[RV_Wizard]

14 minutes ago, FJK said:

Where does Necromancy come into it?

Necromancy is useless since the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

 

Deuteronomy 18:9-12.  

When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.  There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.  For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Leviticus 19:31 - Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 22:18 - Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Galatians 5:19-21 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,   (Read More...)

Isaiah 8:19 - And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Leviticus 20:27 - A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:6 - And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

You won't come to know the nature of God through pagan spiritualism, only His wrath.

 

[The Barbarian]

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

You really DO have a comprehension issue, don't you?

I don't see it as a problem.  When a student fails to comprehend something I'm teaching him, I see it as an opportunity to clarify things.    You're making progress, just not very quickly now.    But you're seeing a lot of things for the first time.  

And I'm a very patient guy.

By definition, there can be no mornings or evenings without a sun.    "Big light in the sky" does not mean "sun."   There is no way to contort the Scriptures to allow for your religion; YE creationism.

Augustine was wrong about some things.   His idea of grace, for example.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

I gave you a long list of his heresies

But as you learned, it was compiled by some person who couldn't tell a Manichean from a Gnostic.   So it's not surprising that he made all those other errors about St. Augustine.

As I said, be careful who you tout as a source.   It's good, sometimes to go check stuff before you present it to others. 

Augustine is recognized as a saint in the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Lutheran churches and the Anglican Communion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo

All of which are firmly set in orthodox Christian belief, whatever differences they might have otherwise.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Christ taught to pray to the Father, not to anyone/ anything else in Heaven or on earth.

So you object to the Trinity?   Seriously?    Worship the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit.   All the same God.   And by objecting to prayers to saints, you are rejecting the communion of saints, a key part of Christian orthodoxy.   Prayer is not necessarily worship.    Do a little reading.

Prayer and worship are two different practices that are often confused with each other. Prayer is the act of communicating with a higher power, while worship is the act of showing reverence and adoration for a deity or deities. While prayer can be a form of worship, not all worship involves prayer.

 

[RV_Wizard]

36 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

By definition, there can be no mornings or evenings without a sun.    "Big light in the sky" does not mean "sn."

It doesn't NOT mean sun either, since the light is NOT named by God.  However, your pretense is that if we called the sun "George" we would no longer have day or night, since the light in your mind MUST be in the same location with the same name for the earth to rotate.

And stinky socks help you hit baseballs.

36 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Augustine was wrong about some things.   His idea of grace, for example.

Many things.  You have the list.

36 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

So you object to the Trinity?   Seriously?    Worship the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit.   All the same God.

What did Jesus say?

Matthew 6:5-9.  And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.  

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.  

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Jesus prayed to the Father.  He taught us to pray to the Father.  We do not pray to the Holy Spirit, for He indwells with us and is our communication with the Father.  We do not pray to the Son.  Though the Father and the Son are one, we give all deference to the Father, as Christ did.

We do not pray to Mary.  She was blessed above all women and was chosen to bear the Christ child because of her piety.  She was married to Joseph and bore him other children as was pleasing to God.  She was not without sin, neither was she righteous because there are none righteous; no, not one.  When Jesus was crucified he gave her to John to be cared for until her natural death.

We do not pray to intercessors because the only intercessor we need is the spirit of God within us to speak directly to the God who made us.  We call no man Father because we have one father, which is in Heaven.  Others may not pray us out of Hell, because there is no redemption from Hell.  There is no purgatory, only the judgment seat of God.  You are either saved or lost.  The saved no longer need to prove themselves.  The lost no longer have that opportunity.

This is what the Bible teaches us.  It is at odds with the Catholic church because people like Augustine promoted things at odds with the Scriptures.  If Catholics believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and accept Him as their personal savior, they will be saved; not because of their rituals, but because of the sacrifice of Christ.  If they sit in the pews and go through the motions, they will join the crowds of Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhists, Muslims and others who likewise didn't embrace Jesus Christ as their lord and savior. 

There is one God and one path to Heaven.  You can be wrong about everything else, but if you accept Christ and live for Him, you will be saved regardless of the machinations of your chosen religion.  Jesus is king of the Jews, and the Jews rejected His teaching.  Though they be God's chosen people, if they do not accept Christ as the only blood sacrifice for their sins they will not be saved.

There is no perfection in me or in any other person, living or dead.  The only perfect soul was Jesus Christ.  He is the key to forgiveness for our sins and shortcomings.  He believed in the Scriptures and taught them as the inspired word of God.  Until He tells me otherwise, the Bible is the ultimate authority on what is right and what is wrong.  

Edited February 11 by RV_Wizard