Perfection Theology

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

4 hours ago, enoob57 said:

We also know the Scripture teaches this about all men
 Romans 3:23 (KJV)

[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

Roman 7 

 

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Indeed because we know

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

So we cannot say that we have never done so

But God commendeth his love toward us, 
in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

While we were "yet" sinners, and without strength Christ died for us

Jesus also said,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

What did Paul say about the same? 

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

And Jesus also said,

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

And what is this?

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness

The grace of God in Jesus Christ is effectual

Sin shall not have dominion over you for you are not under the law but under grace

If sin has no dominion over you that means it cannot reign 

Do not know what Romans 7 is for, is there something it makes void the scriptures I posted in there?

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

16 hours ago, enoob57 said:

If maintaining works to keep one saved, which you are claiming ... then yes you are teaching a works based salvation!

God ORDAINED that we walk in good works.

Not doing this is being a child of disobedience... enjoy!

 

Quote

I apologize for misgendering you

Edited September 17, 2023 by Stan Murff

[JimmyB]

15 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

 

In this situation (if you go back and read)  it says,

Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. (thats their own righteousness)

And yet in respects to Daniel it does show Daniel confessing his sin

Daniel 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God

And God referred to Job as perfect 

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright  man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

 

 

"Perfect" meant something different in 1611 than it does today.  Job was not "perfect"; only Jesus was perfect.

Job 1:8 is translat6ed this way in modern translations: "he is blameless and upright".  

[JimmyB]

4 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

 

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Indeed because we know

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

So we cannot say that we have never done so

But God commendeth his love toward us, 
in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

While we were "yet" sinners, and without strength Christ died for us

Jesus also said,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

What did Paul say about the same? 

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

And Jesus also said,

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

And what is this?

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness

The grace of God in Jesus Christ is effectual

Sin shall not have dominion over you for you are not under the law but under grace

If sin has no dominion over you that means it cannot reign 

Do not know what Romans 7 is for, is there something it makes void the scriptures I posted in there?

 

I agree with you entirely.

[enoob57]

6 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Do not know what Romans 7 is for

That we should always be reliant upon Jesus' righteousness and not our own...

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

6 hours ago, JimmyB said:

"Perfect" meant something different in 1611 than it does today.  Job was not "perfect"; only Jesus was perfect.

Job 1:8 is translat6ed this way in modern translations: "he is blameless and upright".  

Yes, there are a variety of different words 

Jesus said,

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect G5046, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Perfect there is G5046

brought to its end, finished

wanting nothing necessary to completeness

perfect

that which is perfect

consummate human integrity and virtue

of men

full grown, adult, of full age, mature

The same word that is used here of these which are perfect

1 Cr 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: G5046 yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought

And the same word that is used here also when it comes to ourselves as it pertains to Christ

Ephes 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect G5046 man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Perfect here is G2675 where Jesus said,

Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect G2675 shall be as his master. (in an "as he is so are we")

to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete

to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair

to complete

to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust

to fit or frame for one's self, prepare

ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be

So in this also, Jesus said they shall be as their master, equating the two in the perfectness. Just a couple examples, similar to fit for the masters use would play into the same.

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

4 hours ago, enoob57 said:

That we should always be reliant upon Jesus' righteousness and not our own...

He is our righteousness and he loves righteousness and hates iniquity (Psalm 45:7)

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The grace of God is effectual in us also

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Peter 2:2 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

As John tells us

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

And Paul

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

This is that which manifests

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

[JimmyB]

13 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Yes, there are a variety of different words 

Jesus said,

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect G5046, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Perfect there is G5046

brought to its end, finished

wanting nothing necessary to completeness

perfect

that which is perfect

consummate human integrity and virtue

of men

full grown, adult, of full age, mature

The same word that is used here of these which are perfect

1 Cr 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: G5046 yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought

And the same word that is used here also when it comes to ourselves as it pertains to Christ

Ephes 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect G5046 man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Perfect here is G2675 where Jesus said,

Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect G2675 shall be as his master. (in an "as he is so are we")

to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete

to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair

to complete

to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust

to fit or frame for one's self, prepare

ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be

So in this also, Jesus said they shall be as their master, equating the two in the perfectness. Just a couple examples, similar to fit for the masters use would play into the same.

 

It is important that a word is translated so the correct meaning is retained.  

Job was not "perfect" in the modern sense.  In 1611, it meant "complete", which is why it is translated that way in modern translations.

All one has to do is to read the book of Job to realize that he was not perfect in the modern sense.  Only Jesus was perfect.

[Vine Abider]

On 9/16/2023 at 4:14 AM, jesusandliberty said:

I see a lot of steam picking up from Christians spouting perfection doctrine. They back it up with scripture by saying all the verses pertaining to us as sinners refer to us before becoming disciples of Jesus. Can Christians attain 100% righteous perfection? Is this theology sound? Why or why not?

I read through many, but not all of the replies, so I hope I'm not just repeating something already stated . . .

Christians are on one hand are on a journey; on the other hand we've already been given certain gifts and position.

I see two main things we've already been given: 1) Born-again believers have been placed in Christ;  2: He now also lives in us

His residence in us is in our spirit: "That which is born of Spirit is spirit" and "He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit with Him."  ( John 3:6 & 1 Cor 6:17)

So He lives in our innermost being, our spirit.  The soul (will, mind & emotion) is the place where the battles occur.  We can choose, in any moment, to live by our sinful flesh as our source, or live from our renewed spirit.

Therefore, on the one hand we are 100% righteous in where He has put us - in Christ;  on the other hand, this salvation will be worked out in our soul, throughout our lives.

(BTW - "sinners" is not a title applied to born-again children of God in scripture, because we died to sin in Christ.  As His children, we are saints who sometimes still admittedly sin, but can take little pleasure in it now.)

[JimmyB]

6 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

I read through many, but not all of the replies, so I hope I'm not just repeating something already stated . . .

Christians are on one hand are on a journey; on the other hand we've already been given certain gifts and position.

I see two main things we've already been given: 1) Born-again believers have been placed in Christ;  2: He now also lives in us

His residence in us is in our spirit: "That which is born of Spirit is spirit" and "He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit with Him."  ( John 3:6 & 1 Cor 6:17)

So He lives in our innermost being, our spirit.  The soul (will, mind & emotion) is the place where the battles occur.  We can choose, in any moment, to live by our sinful flesh as our source, or live from our renewed spirit.

Therefore, on the one hand we are 100% righteous in where He has put us - in Christ;  on the other hand, this salvation will be worked out in our soul, throughout our lives.

(BTW - "sinners" is not a title applied to born-again children of God in scripture, because we died to sin in Christ.  As His children, we are saints who sometimes still admittedly sin, but take little pleasure in it now.)

I agree totally.

I would have given a rating emoji but for some reason that option isn't available to me.