jesusandliberty Posted September 16, 2023 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 157 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2023 I see a lot of steam picking up from Christians spouting perfection doctrine. They back it up with scripture by saying all the verses pertaining to us as sinners refer to us before becoming disciples of Jesus. Can Christians attain 100% righteous perfection? Is this theology sound? Why or why not? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted September 16, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.84 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2023 2 hours ago, jesusandliberty said: Can Christians attain 100% righteous perfection? I say no, not during our life before death. Perfection is good as an ideal but not as a goal because as soon as we set it as a goal we become imperfect in order to pursue it. Remember that Jesus taught that even an unrighteous (sinful) thought makes us unrighteous (sinful). Every time we argue instead of just discuss scripture or our views in general we should remember that Pride in being right is a sin and makes us wrong and sinful and subject to judgment by the same standards we are making of those we argue with. This is one of the challenges of being Christian, being Christian is not an easy thing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesusandliberty Posted September 16, 2023 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 157 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 16, 2023 15 minutes ago, FJK said: being Christian is not an easy thing. It's not supposed to be right? Narrow path for a reason! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted September 16, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,225 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,483 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted September 16, 2023 The Lord has identified this truth: James 3:11 (KJV) [11] Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? [12] Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. The point of the above is 'source' determines the 'IS' of everything... so when people try to convince you that righteousness can come from this world or manipulation of said source (this world) to produce righteousness they have not learned the lesson God is trying to teach us here: Matthew 7:21 (KJV) [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. When God has confessed the world to be darkness Matthew 4:16 (KJV) [16] The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.[17] From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. and all that are in it sinners... Romans 3:10 (KJV) [10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. how can one manipulate these things to bring about righteousness? It is the righteousness of Jesus that allows us to love here and this work, (love), as it is from above not of here >as it's source< is from God Himself in The Person of The Holy Spirit... THUS you cannot place value upon that which is not valued by God... 2 Peter 3:11 (KJV) [11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, One sure manner is not trying to convince people that the manipulation of this world and the people in it brings salvation in God or perfection of any kind... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesusandliberty Posted September 16, 2023 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 157 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 16, 2023 4 minutes ago, enoob57 said: Romans 3:10 (KJV) [10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: This verse in particular gets pointed as Paul is referring to unbelievers not believers. So the logic being this does not apply to Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted September 16, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,225 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,483 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted September 16, 2023 and this verse says it of all believers 1 John 1:8 (KJV) [8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. There was, is, and will be only one perfect life 1 John 3:5 (KJV) [5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. satan knows this so to thwart this he tries to get us to look other places other than Jesus' perfect life to have it.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Boy Stan Murf Posted September 16, 2023 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,027 Content Per Day: 4.71 Reputation: 279 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2023 No, we aren't going to be perfect in the literal sense as it never making mistakes such as dropping something on the ground, forgetting something, other other simple mistakes (which are related to living in a body that is not glorified yet but are not sins unto death that cause separation from the Lord) But... we ARE supposed to not be walking after the flesh (doing sinful things) and we should not have any knowing or willing sin on our lives which we won't have IF we are be led by the Holy Spirit. This would make us blameless, upright, and "perfect" as the KJV of the bible calls it which is being morally pure, as in not intentionally willingly or knowingly doing sin. 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men. Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Lots of places in scripture where the Lord calls His people blameless and upright... and that upsets the devil and those that are listening to him as it causes them to get upset as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Boy Stan Murf Posted September 16, 2023 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,027 Content Per Day: 4.71 Reputation: 279 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, enoob57 said: and this verse says it of all believers 1 John 1:8 (KJV) [8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If you keep reading... the Lord says thru the Apostle John that we are to "not sin" 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: Edited September 16, 2023 by Stan Murff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. M Posted September 16, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 743 Topics Per Day: 1.35 Content Count: 3,893 Content Per Day: 7.07 Reputation: 1,798 Days Won: 12 Joined: 10/28/2022 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/18/1956 Share Posted September 16, 2023 7 hours ago, jesusandliberty said: I see a lot of steam picking up from Christians spouting perfection doctrine. They back it up with scripture by saying all the verses pertaining to us as sinners refer to us before becoming disciples of Jesus. Can Christians attain 100% righteous perfection? Is this theology sound? Why or why not? Christianity is not about perfecting individuals, it is about perfecting the relationship of imperfect people, rooted and grounded in Christ. It goes without saying that the elders should model all that the Lord provides by His Spirit with us that pertains to life and godliness. 2 Peter 1:3 1 Peter 5:1 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: 2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; 3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; 4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted September 16, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,225 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,483 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted September 16, 2023 36 minutes ago, Stan Murff said: If you keep reading... the Lord says thru the Apostle John that we are to "not sin" 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: Friend we are not disputing whether a Christian should sin or not ... we are in dispute about a works-based salvation... James is quite clear that we should display works fitting the faith we have received from God's Word. But perfection shall not be found in any other than Jesus... that is just Biblical fact. So when you press peoples focus to be upon the works that they do instead of the work Christ has done for them ... you are in error to do so because God plainly says Titus 3:5 (KJV) [5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [6] Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; note no works in justification. | V [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. Notice maintaining good works is profitable unto men not unto God... again that which passes away cannot have in any form that which is everlasting! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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