Did the 'dead' rise before Christ did?

[Shilohsfoal]

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

How do you prove THIS IS ABOUT the 2ND ADVENT and not as it was written as of the 1st? 

It DOESN'T FIT with the 2nd ADVENT even though you say it does.  

What does it really SAY?  

Daniel 12:1
And at time that shall stand up Michael the prince great who stands over the sons of your people and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation to time that

and at time that shall be delivered your people everyone who is found written in the book

And many of those who sleep of the earth in the dust shall awake these to life everlasting and these to shame contempt everlasting


And the DEAD DID RISE, the people under the OLD COVENANT when the graves were opened.  The saints were seen.  A time of trouble like never before, the KING CRUCIFIED and 40 years later the temple destroyed and them scattered.  


Isaiah 26
10Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

11LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.

12LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.

13O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

14They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

15Thou hast increased the nation, O LORD, thou hast increased the nation: thou art glorified: thou hadst removed it far unto all the ends of the earth.

16LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them.

17Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.

18We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

If you have been reading the thread, you have seen where the old covenant came to an end and the 'graves opened' and the captivity was led when He ascended


So until you can show this belongs to the 2nd Advent by a preponderance of evidence, we will continue to disagree. 

Daniel 11:44=Armageddon

Daniel 11:45=the son of perdition dies at Christs coming

Daniel 12:1-2 =the first resurection 

 

All this corresponds to other scripture.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, George said:

@DeighAnn  The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus indicates that there was a place called Abraham's Bosom.  However, after the resurrection of Jesus ... remember there was a Resurrection of Saints in Jerusalem.  I believe the concept of leading Captivity Captive is something that you should research in answering your question.

Mat 27:51  And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 

Mat 27:52  The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 

Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

 

Eph 4:8  Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” 

Eph 4:9  (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 

Eph 4:10  He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 

 

Which parts did I miss?

[Shilohsfoal]

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Unless you die, then you can follow Him, right?  You do know the way...

 

11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

 

 

If ,,I die then I will be dead.Someome should bury me before I start stinking.

But scripture does not say I will sprout wings and go where I did not come from.

 

John 3:13

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Scripture is clear what the law was for. The law was never for salvation, in fact the law could not lead to salvation. 

If bringing us to Christ wasn't for salvation, what was it?

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24 KJV

[Shilohsfoal]

7 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

When Jesus died on the Cross from lost of blood his real being his spiritual self or his soul or his Spirit Man can't remain in the dead body...it can never remain in the body. That has never happened for anyone and it will never happen to anyone. 

The Spirit person or the Spirit Man goes their way and the body will decay and the people do one of the following they either creamate the dead body of the deceased or the bury it 10" feet under the ground so the do not have to watch the decay of the "corpse".

If someone does something as decapitate the dead body for some reason he will not be charged for murder or killing the person because no one is there, he will be charge for doing an indignity to a "corpse". Often people have donated their organs to save someone else's life...or the donate them to science for research.  

After Jesus death his lifeless body was hanging on the Cross but Jesus was not there and by that time he had descended to the underworld, to where he was raised from, from the place of the dead. 

Jesus had a lot of things in his mind, he knew what he had to do down there because the mission God had given him did not finish with his death on the Cross.  

One of the first place he had to go was to make the promise God had given to Abraham and to Issac and to Jacob and to all the descendants of Jacob who were included in the promise and to David and to John the Baptist who were expecting him to come to them and bless them with the Eternal Life which comes together with the Heavenly Inheritance...this is it their Inheritance or their tenancy ended with Jesus Christ. Now as they were in Jesus Christ Eternal Life and his Heavenly Inheritance the only place for them to go was to their Heavenly Inheritance...their lease to be with Abraham's Inheritance expired when they inherit a new abode with Jesus Christ the Heavenly abode. 

This is the Inheritance of the believers in Jesus Christ they are the Inheritance of Jesus Christ and where he is we are together with Jesus Christ in his Heavenly Inheritance and we are co-heirs of Jesus Christ of the Heavenly Inheritance.  When God gave Heaven as the Inheritance to Jesus Christ at the same time he included every one who believes in him, everyone who believes in him he has forgiveness of sins in his name he is under the blood of the Slain Lamb of Jesus Christ..the Lord of Lords and the Judge of all. 

We are in Jesus Christ as he is we are all the time ...because he is our peace with the Heavenly Father.  He is the Eternal Life and we are in his Eternal Life. As he is so we are. We are his children. 

Christ was buried in a tomb at Jerusalem after he died.He didn't go to Abraham who is buried in Hebron .Abraham also did not receive the promises at that time.Abraham will receive the promises when Christ returns.

 

 

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

¹⁶ And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

¹⁷ Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

¹⁸ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[Buzzard3]

On 9/18/2023 at 3:53 PM, DeighAnn said:

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Wasn't Jesus telling us 'the dead' were already being resurrected here?

My understanding is that the dead are resurrected only after the Second Coming - before that event, the souls of the dead who will be saved are with God.  Soul and (glorified) body are reunited in the resurrection, which happens after the Judgement.  

[DeighAnn]

12 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Daniel 11:44=Armageddon

Daniel 11:45=the son of perdition dies at Christs coming

Daniel 12:1-2 =the first resurection 

 

All this corresponds to other scripture.

Matt Mark Luke and John have Jesus coming and starting His ministry.  Did that happen 4 different times?  Does the book of Revelation go in order?

Do the chapters of Daniel 9 10 11 and 12 go in order?  

I am missing your point.   

Similar things take place more than once.  Just because they look or sound the same FOR THE MOST PART, doesn't mean they are speaking of the same event. 

There are signs in the sun, moon and stars NUMEROUS TIMES.  Are they all the same event?  No, the details tell us whether or not they fit. Listing these events from chapter 11 to 12 doesn't prove Dan 12 fits the 2nd Advent.  

 

[DeighAnn]

43 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

 

If ,,I die then I will be dead.Someome should bury me before I start stinking.

But scripture does not say I will sprout wings and go where I did not come from.

 

John 3:13

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

 

 

If you say you will be dead and amongst the dead till Christ returns...what can I say except you haven't escaped the fear and bondage of DEATH like I have.


I am more like Paul, willing to be absent from this body and to be with the Lord. 

As for me, I will Follow Him and go to be where He is because I KNOW THE WAY.    Since He is at the right hand of the Father in heaven, then HEAVEN is where I will be..  

I know how I will be raised up, exactly as it is written, in my spiritual body.  I will be raised up JUST THE ONCE, WITH THE GLORY He has given.   

I am NOT raised up ONCE without a body and a SECOND TIME in what was just DECAY from the corruption of the earth.   THAT ISN'T RIGHT on ANY GODLY LEVEL to me, AND I would rather find my works burnt up and myself NAKED than ever even ONE TIME saying it is.  And I mean that from the bottom of my soul.  


I BELIEVE GOD IS SUPER CLEAR when it COMES TO HIS feelings regarding

DEAD FLESH AND BLOOD bodies.  

1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD:

3He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

4All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.

5All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.

6All the days that he separateth himself unto the LORD he shall come at no dead body.

7He shall not make himself unclean for his father, or for his mother, for his brother, or for his sister, when they die:

because the consecration of his God is upon his head.

8All the days of his separation he is holy unto the LORD.

9And if any man die very suddenly by him, and he hath defiled the head of his consecration; then he shall shave his head in the day of his cleansing, on the seventh day shall he shave it.

There is NOTHING and NO ONE who could EVER persuade me

that in the REALM OF what is GOOD and RIGHT and HOLY

there lies even the possibility 

THAT THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH

would raise up FOR OUR ETERNAL SPIRITUAL BODY

'the dead and decaying sinful flesh and blood body from the corrupted earth'

 in incorruption IN GLORY and in power.  NEVER.

Except of course, the Holy Spirit.  






 

[DeighAnn]

51 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said:

My understanding is that the dead are resurrected only after the Second Coming - before that event, the souls of the dead who will be saved are with God.  Soul and (glorified) body are reunited in the resurrection, which happens after the Judgement.  

Ever take notice EVERYONE SAYS IT, but NO ONE ever produces any SCRIPTURE for it?  

It's like PRE TRIB BUT in this case we have

We have THE DEAD ARE RAISED at the LAST TRUMP when He returns, which would mean they NEVER FOLLOWED HIM and have been DEAD for however long they have been waiting

YET we are told we never die and as He died and rose, so do we and we Follow Him and return with Him when He returns with all the holy Saints.  

HOW is it NO ONE NOTICES HOW DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED THOSE TWO THINGS ARE? 

 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

THE TIME OF THE DEAD.  The dead who have 1000 years to WORK to get their names in the book of life.  THE DEAD who will stand at the GWTJ


The LIVING are returning or being 'caught up' and will SIT UPON THE THRONES with Him as He rules the world with a rod of Iron.