Did the 'dead' rise before Christ did?

[DeighAnn]

 

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Wasn't Jesus telling us 'the dead' were already being resurrected here?

 

 

 

[Montana Marv]

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Wasn't Jesus telling us 'the dead' were already being resurrected here?

 

 

 

No

He is the God of those who are written in the Lambs Book of Life. Those who are of the living.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[DeighAnn]

EVEN UNDER THE LAW of sin and death, you went to hell to pay the penalty of death and awaited a 'LAST DAY RESURRECTION of the dead"


21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.


And HOW FAR HAS 'THE CHURCH' COME FROM THE WISDOM OF KNOWLEDGE OF JEWS under the law of sin and death BACK IN THE DAY???


EVEN UNDER GRACE there STILL REMAINS A 'LAST DAY RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD'???


MEANING CHRIST DIDN'T GIVE LIFE EITHER???


So, what was the point?     
 

[Your closest friendnt]

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Wasn't Jesus telling us 'the dead' were already being resurrected here?

 

 

 

Exodus 3:6 And He said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look toward God. 

Why did Moses hid his face and was afraid? 

When God said that to Moses He re-educated Moses who had grown up in the Egyptian Palace which was run by the Egyptian Priesthood which was very much a system the RCC copy and we have " The Vatican" as an independent state within the Roman Empire.

Re: they do not pay taxes...what the own belongs to the Priesthood and is not the wealth of the country.

The country cannot touch their wealth of the Priesthood. 

"THE ANCIENT VATICAN" the Egyptian Priesthood. 

A lot of the Egyptian beliefs were about the dead and the life after death.

Moses when he stand before the Lord at the burning bush had stand with the knowledge of the Egyptians about death and the life after death. (At that time he did not have the knowledge he had when he wrote the book of Genesis and Leviticus amongst other books. 

Jesus in Mathew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

"He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”"

The Lord let Moses know at the burning bush something that cause fear in Moses. Something that Moses was not familiar with. Something that cause Moses to understand something about the God of Abraham and the distinction between the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and the descendants of Jacob the Israelites and about Moses himself. 

God mentioned Abraham but he then mentioned Issac and then he mentioned Jacob and included all the Israelites, the descendants of Jacob. 

God at that moment informed Moses about the chosen seed of Abraham and he let Abraham know that he was only the God of the descendants of Jacob the Israelites plus Abraham Issac and Jacob. God excluded the other sons of Abraham and their offerings are ge also excluded Esau. 

God inform Moses that the God of the dead reign over the other children of Abraham and Esau as he reign over the rest of the world but he did not reign over Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and the descendants of Jacob.  God emphasize to Moses that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and the descendants of Jacob were the only people in the world that the God of the dead did not reign over them after their death. 

God let Moses know something he was able to connect with. 

Moses knew that the Gods of the Egyptians as the other Gods of the rest of the world were the Gods of the people before they died, that they reign on the people as long as the people yet live.

They were only the Gods of the living people before they died...while yet live.

When they died the God of the dead begins to reign over them.

And at the burning bush God is telling Moses that shook Moses up...that the God of the dead reigns over the dead Egyptians and their leaders and their Kings and their Pharaoh's but the God of the dead does not reign over Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and the descendants of Jacob, that he has never touched them and that he the God of the dead and or any of his agents are off the territory of where Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and his descendants are gathered at the time of their death. 

Later God informed Moses about all the specific details so he wrote the book of Genesis. 

But at that time he let Moses know that they were not with him or they were not Gathered to him at the time of their death but he was still their God and they were still his people after their death that they were alive to him that even not together they still had him as their God and he was still protecting them and no one will ever harass them or enter their territory where they were because he is protecting them, he is still their shield and their bucle and their great reward.. even after their physical death. 

That has only happened with them and no one else in the whole world. 

This is before the end of the Sinai Covenant and the beginning of the reign of Jesus Christ (before the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross) .

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

EVEN UNDER THE LAW of sin and death, you went to hell to pay the penalty of death and awaited a 'LAST DAY RESURRECTION of the dead"


21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.


And HOW FAR HAS 'THE CHURCH' COME FROM THE WISDOM OF KNOWLEDGE OF JEWS under the law of sin and death BACK IN THE DAY???


EVEN UNDER GRACE there STILL REMAINS A 'LAST DAY RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD'???


MEANING CHRIST DIDN'T GIVE LIFE EITHER???


So, what was the point?     
 

It sounds like you are upset that Christ came to fulfill that which is written.

 

³⁹ And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

⁴⁰ And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

But at that time he let Moses know that they were not with him or they were not Gathered to him at the time of their death but he was still their God and they were still his people after their death that they were alive to him that even not together they still had him as their God and he was still protecting them and no one will ever harass them or enter their territory where they were because he is protecting them, he is still their shield and their bucle and their great reward.. even after their physical death. 

That has only happened with them and no one else in the whole world. 

This is before the end of the Sinai Covenant and the beginning of the reign of Jesus Christ (before the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross) .

You are trying to persuade me by saying the same things in the same way, and it is still not working.  I see YOUR words telling me things but I didn't come to faith by them, so they do me no good. 

If you can't show me GOD SAYING IT, then I can't begin to be persuaded.  This 'living to GOD' thing just doesn't follow what is written.  

If Abraham was amongst the dead, in the grave, in hell paying the penalty of sin by death and had not been gathered to GOD when God was speaking to Moses

then GOD could NOT have said I am the God of Abraham. 

Either Abraham was still alive and LIVING WITH GOD in heaven

or

Abraham was DEAD now in bondage there, a captive of Apollyon/Abaddon, in hell.   

Doesn't matter HOW GOD THINKS about or perceives the SITUATION or what will be take place in the FUTURE, AT THAT POINT in time, at that moment HE COULD NOT HAVE SAID He was his God if at that moment he was actually dead.  

God is NOT the author of confusion, and as such we can't set to 'confuse' what is simply happening and being said.  THAT is why any doctrine not taught as a doctrine by God ever works .  They always cause conflict.  They always are set forth to get out of/bypass reading all the words of God.  

 How do the words proceed from GOD?

3754 [e]    Ὅτι
hoti    That    Conj
1161 [e]    δὲ
de    however    Conj

1453 [e]    ἐγείρονται
egeirontai    are raised    V-PIM/P-3P

Verb - PRESENT INDICATIVE MIDDLE OR PASSIVE - 3RD PERSON PLURAL

It is NOT WRITTEN in a FUTURE tense but A PRESENT one.  

It is NOT written in any way as to the dead WILL BE RAISED some day, one day in the future

BUT it is in the sense/tense of the dead BEING raised up not only presently but by Abraham also past.

3588 [e]    οἱ
hoi    the    Art-NMP
3498 [e]    νεκροὶ,
nekroi    dead,    Adj-NMP
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    even    Conj
3475 [e]    Μωϋσῆς
Mōusēs    Moses    N-NMS
3377 [e]    ἐμήνυσεν
emēnysen    showed    V-AIA-3S
1909 [e]    ἐπὶ
epi    at    Prep
3588 [e]    τῆς
tēs    the    Art-GFS
942 [e]    Βάτου,
Batou    bush,    N-GFS
5613 [e]    ὡς
hōs    when    Adv
3004 [e]    λέγει
legei    he calls    V-PIA-3S
2962 [e]    Κύριον
Kyrion    [the] Lord    N-AMS
3588 [e]    Τὸν
ton    the    Art-AMS
2316 [e]    Θεὸν
Theon    God    N-AMS
11 [e]    Ἀβραὰμ
Abraam    of Abraham,    N-GMS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
2316 [e]    Θεὸν
Theon    God    N-AMS
2464 [e]    Ἰσαὰκ
Isaak    of Isaac,    N-GMS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
2316 [e]    Θεὸν
Theon    God    N-AMS
2384 [e]    Ἰακώβ·
Iakōb    of Jacob.’    N-GMS

Those, under the law of sin and death KNEW there was to be a resurrection of the dead on the last day but

21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Then, Jesus brings forth the New Covenant, we are now under grace.  Christ has done what the Law could not do

and that is, He gives life.

So what does the CHURCH SAY?   THERE WILL BE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD ON THE LAST DAY? 
Then what EXACTLY does the gift of Salvation SAVE US FROM, if not death and paying the penalty of sin?  

We agree Jesus died and was raised up to heaven in a body, right?  If that is true and this is true "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" Romans 6:5 KJV

yet we aren't raised up when we die the common death, like He did but wait for His return, and if we aren't raised up in glory and power and incorruption like He was but wait for His return,

then how is our death and resurrection the same on any level? 

Ever compare  being 'planted' at death and being 'raised up' in glory?

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,
we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

EVER NOTICE HOW THIS SAYS THAT?

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

More PROOF, saving what I consider some of the best... with THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD NEVER BEING ANY SORT OF 'A MYSTERY' EVEN SO FAR BACK AS TO the blood of Abel crying out, we have been shown the FIRST DEATH is not A poof FOREVER YOU ARE DEAD, DEATH.  The first death man can affect, the second one only comes at the GWTJ.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery;

WHAT is the MYSTERY ABOUT?

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

NOT EVERYONE WILL have suffered their FIRST DEATH at the 2nd Advent of Christ.   

Can we be sure as to what day that will be?  Yes, we are told exactly when those who are ALIVE and remaining will be changed.  

There is NO ONE ELSE MENTIONED as whom THE MYSTERY pertains.  If we don't lose sight of that, many problems from all over the Bible disappear.  

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth DECAY inherit IMMORTALITY

Behold, I shew you a mystery; WE shall not all sleep, but WE shall all be changed,

HOW LONG WILL THIS CHANGE REQUIRE, WHEN WILL THIS CHANGE TAKE PLACE, WHAT THINGS WILL HAPPEN BEFORE IT DOES? 

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised imperishable,

THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT MUST HAPPEN BEFORE THOSE WHO 'NOT SHALL SLEEP, WILL BE CHANGED'.  That is all that has been said.  

and WE shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,

then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Did you notice the dead are raised up IMPERISHABLE, but NOT IMMORTAL?  If you look at the verse RIGHT above it you will see why.  

Those who are raised up from the decay become SOMETHING DIFFERENT than those who are changed.   Look at it, study it, clear your mind of your own thoughts and let GODS WORDS tell the story, analyze it, go back to the GREEK, check out the different words definitions, the verb tenses that are used, break it all down, ponder, pray... because in the end

there is only ONE reference to what happens to the DEAD in these verses and that is

they are raised up from the grave in a spiritual body,
but absolutely not in an indestructible one
nor do they become IMMORTAL/receive their immortality.

And that is one of the ways we know for sure 

THE DEAD THAT ARE RAISED UP AT THE RETURN OF CHRIST,

HAVE NEVER RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION.    

******************************************************************************************************
EXACT SAME THING JUST DIFFERENT COLORS.....

  If Abraham was amongst the dead, in the grave, in hell paying the penalty of sin by death and had not been gathered to GOD when God was speaking to Moses

then GOD could NOT have said I am the God of Abraham. 

Either Abraham was still alive and LIVING WITH GOD in heaven

or

Abraham was DEAD now in bondage there, a captive of Apollyon/Abaddon, in hell.   

Doesn't matter HOW GOD THINKS about or perceives the SITUATION or what will be take place in the FUTURE, AT THAT POINT in time, at that moment HE COULD NOT HAVE SAID He was his God if at that moment he was actually dead.  


God is NOT the author of confusion, and as such we can't set to 'confuse' what is simply happening and being said.  THAT is why any doctrine not taught as a doctrine by God ever works .  They always cause conflict.  They always are set forth to get out of/bypass reading all the words of God.  


 
How do the words proceed from GOD?

3754 [e]    Ὅτι
hoti    That    Conj
1161 [e]    δὲ
de    however    Conj


1453 [e]    ἐγείρονται
egeirontai    are raised    V-PIM/P-3P

Verb - PRESENT INDICATIVE MIDDLE OR PASSIVE - 3RD PERSON PLURAL

It is NOT WRITTEN in a FUTURE tense but A PRESENT one.  

It is NOT written in any way as to the dead WILL BE RAISED some day, one day in the future

BUT it is in the sense/tense of the dead BEING raised up not only presently but by Abraham also past.

 

3588 [e]    οἱ
hoi    the    Art-NMP
3498 [e]    νεκροὶ,
nekroi    dead,    Adj-NMP
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    even    Conj
3475 [e]    Μωϋσῆς
Mōusēs    Moses    N-NMS
3377 [e]    ἐμήνυσεν
emēnysen    showed    V-AIA-3S
1909 [e]    ἐπὶ
epi    at    Prep
3588 [e]    τῆς
tēs    the    Art-GFS
942 [e]    Βάτου,
Batou    bush,    N-GFS
5613 [e]    ὡς
hōs    when    Adv
3004 [e]    λέγει
legei    he calls    V-PIA-3S
2962 [e]    Κύριον
Kyrion    [the] Lord    N-AMS
3588 [e]    Τὸν
ton    the    Art-AMS
2316 [e]    Θεὸν
Theon    God    N-AMS
11 [e]    Ἀβραὰμ
Abraam    of Abraham,    N-GMS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
2316 [e]    Θεὸν
Theon    God    N-AMS
2464 [e]    Ἰσαὰκ
Isaak    of Isaac,    N-GMS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
2316 [e]    Θεὸν
Theon    God    N-AMS
2384 [e]    Ἰακώβ·
Iakōb    of Jacob.’    N-GMS





Those, under the law of sin and death KNEW there was to be a resurrection of the dead on the last day but

21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.


Then, Jesus brings forth the New Covenant, we are now under grace.  Christ has done what the Law could not do

and that is, He gives life.

So what does the CHURCH SAY?   THERE WILL BE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD ON THE LAST DAY? 
Then what EXACTLY does the gift of Salvation SAVE US FROM, if not death and paying the penalty of sin?  


We agree Jesus died and was raised up to heaven in a body, right?  If that is true and this is true "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" Romans 6:5 KJV

yet we aren't raised up when we die the common death, like He did but wait for His return, and if we aren't raised up in glory and power and incorruption like He was but wait for His return,

then how is our death and resurrection the same on any level? 



Ever compare  being 'planted' at death and being 'raised up' in glory?

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,
we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

EVER NOTICE HOW THIS SAYS THAT?

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.





More PROOF, saving what I consider some of the best... with THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD NEVER BEING ANY SORT OF 'A MYSTERY' EVEN SO FAR BACK AS TO the blood of Abel crying out, we have been shown the FIRST DEATH is not A poof FOREVER YOU ARE DEAD, DEATH.  The first death man can affect, the second one only comes at the GWTJ.

 

51Behold, I shew you a mystery;

WHAT is the MYSTERY ABOUT?

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

NOT EVERYONE WILL have suffered their FIRST DEATH at the 2nd Advent of Christ.   

Can we be sure as to what day that will be?  Yes, we are told exactly when those who are ALIVE and remaining will be changed.  

There is NO ONE ELSE MENTIONED as whom THE MYSTERY pertains.  If we don't lose sight of that, many problems from all over the Bible disappear.  



Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth DECAY inherit IMMORTALITY

Behold, I shew you a mystery; WE shall not all sleep, but WE shall all be changed,

HOW LONG WILL THIS CHANGE REQUIRE, WHEN WILL THIS CHANGE TAKE PLACE, WHAT THINGS WILL HAPPEN BEFORE IT DOES? 

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised imperishable,

THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT MUST HAPPEN BEFORE THOSE WHO 'NOT SHALL SLEEP, WILL BE CHANGED'.  That is all that has been said.  

and WE shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,

then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.




Did you notice the dead are raised up IMPERISHABLE, but NOT IMMORTAL?  If you look at the verse RIGHT above it you will see why.  

Those who are raised up from the decay become SOMETHING DIFFERENT than those who are changed.   Look at it, study it, clear your mind of your own thoughts and let GODS WORDS tell the story, analyze it, go back to the GREEK, check out the different words definitions, the verb tenses that are used, break it all down, ponder, pray... because in the end


there is only ONE reference to what happens to the DEAD in these verses and that is

they are raised up from the grave in a spiritual body,
but absolutely not in an indestructible one
nor do they become IMMORTAL/receive their immortality.

And that is one of the ways we know for sure 

THE DEAD THAT ARE RAISED UP AT THE RETURN OF CHRIST,

HAVE NEVER RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION.    


  

[Diaste]

On 9/18/2023 at 11:42 AM, DeighAnn said:

EVEN UNDER GRACE there STILL REMAINS A 'LAST DAY RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD'???

 

What about all those who died 'before' grace? They wait for the last day.

But it's really always been grace. It never was the law. Jesus said the following:

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day

“Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

 

[Diaste]

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

You are trying to persuade me by saying the same things in the same way, and it is still not working.  I see YOUR words telling me things but I didn't come to faith by them, so they do me no good. 

If you can't show me GOD SAYING IT, then I can't begin to be persuaded.  

Quite a few important truths come from the Apostles and prophets. Do you disregard those?

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

Doesn't matter HOW GOD THINKS about or perceives the SITUATION or what will be take place in the FUTURE,   

I'm not sure I would say the above.

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

God is NOT the author of confusion, and as such we can't set to 'confuse' what is simply happening and being said.  THAT is why any doctrine not taught as a doctrine by God ever works .  They always cause conflict.  They always are set forth to get out of/bypass reading all the words of God.  

Seems confusing to say "I'll only listen to the words of God." Then say "It doesn't matter what God thinks..."

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

 Those, under the law of sin and death KNEW there was to be a resurrection of the dead on the last day but

21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Then, Jesus brings forth the New Covenant, we are now under grace.  Christ has done what the Law could not do

and that is, He gives life.

So what does the CHURCH SAY?   THERE WILL BE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD ON THE LAST DAY? 
Then what EXACTLY does the gift of Salvation SAVE US FROM, if not death and paying the penalty of sin?  

Do you have any biblical proof from the lips of God saying when a person dies they go suffer in hell? 

 

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

We agree Jesus died and was raised up to heaven in a body, right?  If that is true and this is true "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" Romans 6:5 KJV

I don't know, Paul said the above. It didn't come from God. How are you persuaded the above is true?

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

yet we aren't raised up when we die the common death, like He did but wait for His return, and if we aren't raised up in glory and power and incorruption like He was but wait for His return,

then how is our death and resurrection the same on any level? 

How would it be on the same level? Jesus death and shed blood covered the sin of the entire world, His resurrection assures us all we will be resurrected when the time comes. That's a level far above us, as far as east is from west. 

It's a likeness of resurrection only. If we are resurrected at all it's a likeness. Our resurrection is a gift, His was a major victory over death. Here's the word translated 'likeness', notice the parts in bold:

homoióma: that which is made like (something)

Original Word: ὁμοίωμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: homoióma
Phonetic Spelling: (hom-oy'-o-mah)
Definition: that which is made like (something)
Usage: (originally: a thing made like something else), a likeness, or rather: form; a similitude.

HELPS Word-studies

3667 homoíōma (a neuter noun derived from homos, "the same") – properly, the same as; likeness, similitude (resemblance).

3667 /homoíōma ("likeness, particular similarity") is a comparison used to increase understanding. 3667 /homoíōma ("resemblance") does not require one element of a comparison to be derived from the other; indeed, it can be wholly separate from it. Rather, 3667 (homoíōma) refers to a basic analogy (resemblance), not an exact copy.

We are NOT copies of Jesus Christ but rather share in the resurrection. It's a likeness of coming back to life, not being resurrected into every attribute, characteristic and trait of the one doing the resurrecting.

The concept of 'likeness' as Paul used it is: "does not require one element of a comparison to be derived from the other; indeed, it can be wholly separate from it....(it)refers to a basic analogy (resemblance), not an exact copy."

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

and WE shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,

then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Did you notice the dead are raised up IMPERISHABLE, but NOT IMMORTAL?  If you look at the verse RIGHT above it you will see why.  

First, this is not God saying it, how can you be sure of it's truthfulness? Are you sure you're persuaded here?

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."

The word translated 'imperishable'. Notice the bold

aphthartos: imperishable, incorruptible

Original Word: ἄφθαρτος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aphthartos
Phonetic Spelling: (af'-thar-tos)
Definition: undecaying, imperishable
Usage: indestructible, imperishable, incorruptible; hence: immortal.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 862: ἄφθαρτος

ἄφθαρτος, ἄφθαρτον (φθείρω), uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable: of things, 1 Corinthians 9:25; 1 Peter 1:4, 23; 1 Peter 3:4; (ἄφθαρτος κήρυγμα τῆς αἰωνίου σωτηρίας, Mark 16 WH in (rejected) 'Shorter Conclusion'). immortal: of the risen dead, 1 Corinthians 15:52; of God, Romans 1:23; 1 Timothy 1:17. (Wis. 12:1 Wis. 18:4. (Aristotle), Plutarch, Lucian, others. (Cf. Trench, § lxviii.).)

See how the concept of 'immortal' is contained in 1 Cor 15:52? " immortal: of the risen dead, 1 Corinthians 15:52"

I think you are bent on proving some point and are failing to look at the definitions and concepts of the language in the text. But since Paul said it, can we really trust it?

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

Those who are raised up from the decay become SOMETHING DIFFERENT than those who are changed.   Look at it, study it, clear your mind of your own thoughts and let GODS WORDS tell the story, analyze it, go back to the GREEK, check out the different words definitions, the verb tenses that are used, break it all down, ponder, pray... because in the end

Paul doesn't say any such thing as it would contradict what Paul says here:

"By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

Paul is saying the first ones to be raised are the dead and the living follow them...TO THE CLOUDS. The risen dead are taken up first to meet Jesus in the clouds, meeting the Lord in the air, then the translated living follow them. The risen dead are just as immortal as the translated living and hook up with Jesus Christ in the atmosphere before anyone else.

Ever notice how the ones who got beheaded, dead, dead, dead, are the ones who live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years? That's right in Revelation Chapter 20. The risen dead at the time of the 2nd advent are raised to immortality.

 

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

there is only ONE reference to what happens to the DEAD in these verses and that is

they are raised up from the grave in a spiritual body,
but absolutely not in an indestructible one
nor do they become IMMORTAL/receive their immortality.

Scripture shows this to be false, as I have shown above.

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

And that is one of the ways we know for sure 

THE DEAD THAT ARE RAISED UP AT THE RETURN OF CHRIST,

HAVE NEVER RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION.    

Pretty shocking statement since the following is fact:

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus

Beheaded people are generally dead, really, really dead.

"And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

So it isn't salvation when the beheaded dead, dead, dead came back to life and live with Jesus for 1000 years?

I think this is clearly salvation. This nullifies your statement above.

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

EXACT SAME THING JUST DIFFERENT COLORS.....

  If Abraham was amongst the dead, in the grave, in hell paying the penalty of sin by death and had not been gathered to GOD when God was speaking to Moses

then GOD could NOT have said I am the God of Abraham. 

Either Abraham was still alive and LIVING WITH GOD in heaven

or

Abraham was DEAD now in bondage there, a captive of Apollyon/Abaddon, in hell.

Offer up some proof of this dichotomy or please stop saying it. I have never seen nor heard God say the dead are captives of Apollyon in some hell. This is you saying it, not God. As such I can never begin to be persuaded.

 

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

Doesn't matter HOW GOD THINKS about or perceives the SITUATION or what will be take place in the FUTURE, AT THAT POINT in time, at that moment HE COULD NOT HAVE SAID He was his God if at that moment he was actually dead.  

 

Now we have this again. Do you even hear or see what you are typing and thinking?

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

God is NOT the author of confusion, and as such we can't set to 'confuse' what is simply happening and being said.  THAT is why any doctrine not taught as a doctrine by God ever works .  They always cause conflict.  They always are set forth to get out of/bypass reading all the words of God.  


 
How do the words proceed from GOD?

3754 [e]    Ὅτι
hoti    That    Conj
1161 [e]    δὲ
de    however    Conj


1453 [e]    ἐγείρονται
egeirontai    are raised    V-PIM/P-3P

Verb - PRESENT INDICATIVE MIDDLE OR PASSIVE - 3RD PERSON PLURAL

It is NOT WRITTEN in a FUTURE tense but A PRESENT one.  

It is NOT written in any way as to the dead WILL BE RAISED some day, one day in the future

BUT it is in the sense/tense of the dead BEING raised up not only presently but by Abraham also past.

Yeah, speaking of the nature of God, not whether any resurrection was happening then, or not. In fact people were resurrected in the OT times and a couple even taken directly to heaven without dying. 

God can resurrect any one at any time for any reason and He doesn't require the counsel of DeighAnn or anyone else concerning His acts or reasons and purpose. 

You are probably thinking the 1st resurrection at the 2nd advent is the 1st in order. It's not. It's the main, primary, chief, top resurrection. God has probably translated quite a few people directly to heaven upon death as He sees fit. 

Doesn't prove your point in any case.

 

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

Then, Jesus brings forth the New Covenant, we are now under grace.  

Dispensational, pretrib nonsense. We have always been under grace. The law was to show sin to be sin; without the law sin cannot be imputed. That was the laws only purpose; to interject a standard by which to judge sin, not to judge righteousness.

You need to rethink here.

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

So what does the CHURCH SAY?   THERE WILL BE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD ON THE LAST DAY? 
Then what EXACTLY does the gift of Salvation SAVE US FROM, if not death and paying the penalty of sin?  


We agree Jesus died and was raised up to heaven in a body, right?  If that is true and this is true "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" Romans 6:5 KJV

yet we aren't raised up when we die the common death, like He did but wait for His return, and if we aren't raised up in glory and power and incorruption like He was but wait for His return,

then how is our death and resurrection the same on any level? 



Ever compare  being 'planted' at death and being 'raised up' in glory?

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,
we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

EVER NOTICE HOW THIS SAYS THAT?

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.





More PROOF, saving what I consider some of the best... with THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD NEVER BEING ANY SORT OF 'A MYSTERY' EVEN SO FAR BACK AS TO the blood of Abel crying out, we have been shown the FIRST DEATH is not A poof FOREVER YOU ARE DEAD, DEATH.  The first death man can affect, the second one only comes at the GWTJ.

 

51Behold, I shew you a mystery;

WHAT is the MYSTERY ABOUT?

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

NOT EVERYONE WILL have suffered their FIRST DEATH at the 2nd Advent of Christ.   

Can we be sure as to what day that will be?  Yes, we are told exactly when those who are ALIVE and remaining will be changed.  

There is NO ONE ELSE MENTIONED as whom THE MYSTERY pertains.  If we don't lose sight of that, many problems from all over the Bible disappear.  



Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth DECAY inherit IMMORTALITY

Behold, I shew you a mystery; WE shall not all sleep, but WE shall all be changed,

HOW LONG WILL THIS CHANGE REQUIRE, WHEN WILL THIS CHANGE TAKE PLACE, WHAT THINGS WILL HAPPEN BEFORE IT DOES? 

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised imperishable,

THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT MUST HAPPEN BEFORE THOSE WHO 'NOT SHALL SLEEP, WILL BE CHANGED'.  That is all that has been said.  

and WE shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,

then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.




Did you notice the dead are raised up IMPERISHABLE, but NOT IMMORTAL?  If you look at the verse RIGHT above it you will see why.  

Those who are raised up from the decay become SOMETHING DIFFERENT than those who are changed.   Look at it, study it, clear your mind of your own thoughts and let GODS WORDS tell the story, analyze it, go back to the GREEK, check out the different words definitions, the verb tenses that are used, break it all down, ponder, pray... because in the end


there is only ONE reference to what happens to the DEAD in these verses and that is

they are raised up from the grave in a spiritual body,
but absolutely not in an indestructible one
nor do they become IMMORTAL/receive their immortality.

And that is one of the ways we know for sure 

THE DEAD THAT ARE RAISED UP AT THE RETURN OF CHRIST,

HAVE NEVER RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION.    


  

You're repeating.

[DeighAnn]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

What about all those who died 'before' grace? They wait for the last day.

But it's really always been grace. It never was the law. Jesus said the following:

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day

“Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

 

Those who died BEFORE Grace was offered 'to whomsoever would', HAVE ALREADY risen.  What do you think Christ was doing in the 'grave' for 3 days?   HE was preaching the GOOD NEWS, and to those who came to BELIEF and repented, they were washed clean and with the PENALTY having been paid were led by Christ to heaven being released from that PRISON and BONDAGE.


"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;" Isaiah 61:1 KJV

 

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.  Luke 4

15And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus Himself drew near, and went with them.

16But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

17And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

18And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

19And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

20And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

21But we trusted that it had been He which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.  Luke 24

 

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.

2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 

4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.  Rev 14

What it DOESN'T say is they are the ONLY firstfruits...and there are no others...so I don't say that either. 


I don't add my own 'religion' to when or what 'the last day' means in any of the verses it is found. I just WAIT and allow Scripture and the Holy Spirit to dictate what they do or do not mean.  That is How and Why I see things from a different perspective.  I believe GOD used the words He wanted to say the things HE MEANT the first time.  What is written, is in fact, what is meant EVEN when when the verses have MORE than one meaning, NEITHER can make the other VOID.  

By the time we get to John 11, the Kingdom has been rejected and the King shortly will be, so the NEW COVENANT is about to replace the OLD.  But that 'change' doesn't mean any of the promises and prophecies given in the OLD disappear or are forgotten, they have to remain TRUE or else we can count on NOTHING.  So, they either have to take place at that time or be postponed.  


When Jesus died, the New Covenant was immediately brought forth, meaning the OLD had seen ITS LAST DAY.  

OUR CHOICE  -   do we read and understand the New Test as if the OLD never existed

or

do we KEEP our eyes open FOR THE TRANSISTIONING VERSES that lead us from the ONE covenant to the other?


What was promised?  A 'last' day when the DEAD would be raised up.  They may have expected to see and live through everything in one way, but since the KINGDOM and the King were rejected, it couldn't happen in this realm as they were expecting, but God still made sure many of the real 'Jews' got to see it.

But that doesn't stop everything else PROMISED from TAKING PLACE in the spiritual realm though, does it?  

So, what are WE GIVEN about those days either before, during, or after?


"Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel." Ezekiel 37:12 KJV

(before you say they were NOT brought to the LAND OF ISRAEL remember..."To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints." 1 Thessalonians 3:13 KJV)


"And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up out of your graves," Ezekiel 37:13 KJV


"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose," Matthew 27:52 KJV

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:10 KJV

(this being a reference not only to those 'scattered' on the earth but also those in bondage to death in hell.  Some lost to death by the law of sin and death others by being the scattered sheep of the House of Israel) 

4Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon Him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

5They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am He. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

6As soon then as He had said unto them, I am He, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

7Then asked He them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

8Jesus answered, I have told you that I am He: if therefore ye seek Me, let these go their way:

9That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which Thou gavest Me have I lost none." John 18:9 KJV


"And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet." Luke 11:29 KJV

There will be a resurrection of the dead both the just and unjust....."The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." Luke 11:32 KJV

(men of Nineve worship a fish god???)



 

23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: He that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

A DOUBLE or triple or quadruple meaning...FOR THE OLD COVENANT

1.  THOSE who were sleeping/in the grave under the law of sin and death,

2. THOSE who died BEFORE GRACE was offer to the Gentiles

ALL OF THEM 'CAPTIVES' OF DEATH/THE GRAVE, all of them ABOUT to HEAR the GOOD NEWS when Christ descends, when those who REPENT will be washed clean and will have their graves opened to ascend into heaven when He leads the captivity.... SEEN in the spiritual realm, not in the earthy.  


3. BUT IT ALSO speaks to THE NEW COVENANT

those who will continue on living and everyone born since then who will COME TO FAITH by hearing the words of God, going from being one of the spiritually dead to one of the spiritually living AND as you quoted "“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him,




and I will raise him up at the last day"  How does LIFE GO ON under the NEW COVENANT? 

 The last day for those who have received the gift of Salvation is at THE COMMON DEATH. 

It can BE NO OTHER DAY because that is when we are raised up.  Praise ye the Lord


4.  The last day for the DEAD when Christ returns


WE EITHER are raised up or we descend at the death of this flesh. There are no other options. 

SO, BEING RAISED UP on the last day CAN ONLY MEAN at the common death under the NEW COVENANT.   

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

RThere is only ONE SINGLE WAY IN WHICH TO NEVER DIE and that is to CONTINUE ON LIVING.  THANK GOD, THAT GOD IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING.  

To continue on living one must be RAISED UP to the GOD OF THE LIVING in the likeness of Christ, in a body. 

as opposed to dying in which one is DESCENDING into the grave headed towards bondage and captivity by THE king of the DEAD. 



It is sown a natrual body it is raised a spiritual body.  

IF ANY THING other than that were to take place, THAT would become A LIE.  





15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.




They were saying IT WAS PAST, RATHER THAN saying it was/had become PRESENT from that day on.   Not all that different than those saying it wasn't past but will be future.  But that is how deception works. 


 

19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:" 1 Corinthians 1:2 KJV

Edited September 20, 2023 by DeighAnn

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 9/17/2023 at 11:53 PM, DeighAnn said:

 

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Wasn't Jesus telling us 'the dead' were already being resurrected here?

 

 

 

Those who are dead and in Heaven is who I think he was talking about. He spoke of dead people as if they were still here, so I guess they were. Even the dead are still alive. Jesus is still the God of those in Heaven or Hell as he is with us on Earth. Only Jesus has received his resurrection body, so no, no one has been resurrected yet.