AdHoc Posted October 19, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,063 Content Per Day: 3.30 Reputation: 1,464 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2023 6 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said: Did you notice the word "might" in v.31? A believer "MIGHT have life through his name." The word "might" infers uncertainty viz-a-viz salvation - just like the 20+ NT verses that describe salvation as a "hope". Incidentally, I noticed that you made no attempt to explain why salvation is described as a "hope" in at least twenty verses in the NT. No. The word rendered "might" in the original means "have permission", or "to be able to". John 7:39 is clear. There was a hindrance to receiving life that first needed to be taken care of. Then "might" men have Life. You are correct about me not attempting to explain the many mentions of "salvation". I judge it to be a diversionary tactic by you to cloud the matter, for the simple reason that there are many things we are saved from and by. It would take a small book. Eight were saved FROM water by an Ark, but these same eight were saved BY water too (1st Pet.3:20). And this all while a woman is saved by childbearing (1st Tim.2:15). Your trap was clever - but not for me - thanks. If you want to write a few paragraphs on these three "salvations", I promise to read them carefully. But I doubt if you'll come to the meaning of Ephesians 2:8. Nevertheless - God bless 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted October 19, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 206 Topics Per Day: 0.36 Content Count: 3,495 Content Per Day: 6.15 Reputation: 2,343 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/2024 Share Posted October 19, 2023 On 10/18/2023 at 8:53 AM, Vine Abider said: Let's look at this passage again, Romans 8:23 - 25: "Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently." This is a perfect example of our ongoing salvation/sanctification process. We have (past tense) received the Spirit when we were born again in our inmost part (our human spirit): "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Now, as children of God who are born of His Spirit, we are currently being sanctified in our soul (mind, emotion, will) and groaning . . . while we wait for the future redemption of our bodies (sinful flesh) - this redemption of our bodies is the last stage of salvation, and is our future hope as children of God. 31 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said: Incidentally, I noticed that you made no attempt to explain why salvation is described as a "hope" in at least twenty verses in the NT. Regarding your mention of hope, I noticed you didn't respond to my post to you (copied above) which parsed Romans 8:23-25. In those verses it talks about future hope being "the redemption of our bodies." So that part is future hope, but the preceding verses talk about how we were already "saved in hope" and already "have the first fruits of the Spirit." To me, these verses clearly demonstrate the three main stages of salvation (spirit first, then soul, lastly body). How do you see that passage? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzard3 Posted October 19, 2023 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 271 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/25/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2023 On 10/19/2023 at 9:37 AM, AdHoc said: This type of conclusion is a result of your "aka"-strategy. "Born again" is a new and additional birth to qualify one as royalty for the kingdom's sake (Jn.3:3). To "see" the Kingdom one must be resurrected with Christianity (1st Cor.15:23). To "ENTER" the Kingdom you need to be born out of the Holy Spirit and out of water. In John 3:3-5, (a) Jesus says being being "born again" means baptism ("born of water and Spirit"); (b) Jesus implies that to "see" the Kingdom is the same as to "enter" the Kingdom. "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again,, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”... Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. To "see the kingdom" means to see God (cf Heb 14:15) and be in the presence of God, which is impossible unless one has entered the kingdom. "And the Lord said to Moses ... 'you cannot see my face; for no man shall see me and live.'” (Exodus 33:17-20) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzard3 Posted October 20, 2023 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 271 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/25/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2023 (edited) Post deleted Edited October 20, 2023 by Buzzard3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzard3 Posted October 20, 2023 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 271 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/25/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2023 (edited) On 10/19/2023 at 2:53 AM, Vine Abider said: Let's look at this passage again, Romans 8:23 - 25: "Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently." This is a perfect example of our ongoing salvation/sanctification process. We have (past tense) received the Spirit when we were born again in our inmost part (our human spirit): "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Now, as children of God who are born of His Spirit, we are currently being sanctified in our soul (mind, emotion, will) and groaning . . . while we wait for the future redemption of our bodies (sinful flesh) - this redemption of our bodies is the last stage of salvation, and is our future hope as children of God. However, nowhere in that passage does it say being born again by receiving the Spirit is a certain guarantee of one's salvation and that we've been issued with an irrevocable ticket to Heaven. Moreover, Hebrews 6:4-8 says believers "who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit" - ie, those are "born again" - can fall way into "apostasy" and lose any hope of salvation. Quote Now, as children of God who are born of His Spirit "Now"? The text doesn't say we are "Now" children of God. On the contrary, it says "we WAIT eagerly FOR OUR ADOPTION AS SONS, the redemption of our bodies" - that means our "adoption" as children of God is a FUTURE event. The writer then tells us precisely when in the future - at "the redemption of our bodies" - ie, after we've been judged (post-mortem) by Christ and receive our glorified bodies. Quote who are born of His Spirit, we are currently being sanctified Yes. 1Cor 6:11 concisely describes the process of salvation: "And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." "washed" refers to baptism - ie, faith. "sanctified" (sanctification) refers to repentance from sin ("And such were some of you") - ie, turning away from sinful behaviour and striving (albeit imperfectly) to lead a holy life by keeping God's commandments (1John 2:3-6, 1Peter 1:14-17). This is what's known as "works". "justified" relates to what James 2:24 says - "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone". Add washed (baptism/faith) to sanctified (works) and you get justified - ie, James 2:24 ... washed+ sanctified= justified Furthermore, we must remain faithful and sanctified in order to remain justified ... an ongoing and conditional process that doesn't end until we die. Quote "For this hope we were saved" A curious choice of words that could easily be misconstrued: If we are already assured of our salvation, there's no need to "hope" for our salvation. Therefore, by "we are saved", the writer doesn't mean we are literally now already saved and assured of salvation. The writer then goes on to say, "we hope for what we do not YET see, we WAIT for it patiently." Edited October 20, 2023 by Buzzard3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzard3 Posted October 20, 2023 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 271 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/25/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2023 (edited) 20 hours ago, AdHoc said: "judged worthy of eternal life"??? “‘I know your works ... I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God ... Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels." (Rev 3:1-5) In that passage, Jesus judges certain believers "worthy" of eternal life in Heaven ... based on their "works". Edited October 20, 2023 by Buzzard3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted October 20, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,063 Content Per Day: 3.30 Reputation: 1,464 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2023 14 hours ago, Buzzard3 said: In John 3:3-5, (a) Jesus says being being "born again" means baptism ("born of water and Spirit"); (b) Jesus implies that to "see" the Kingdom is the same as to "enter" the Kingdom. "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again,, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”... Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. To "see the kingdom" means to see God (cf Heb 14:15) and be in the presence of God, which is impossible unless one has entered the kingdom. "And the Lord said to Moses ... 'you cannot see my face; for no man shall see me and live.'” (Exodus 33:17-20) 2 hours ago, Buzzard3 said: “‘I know your works ... I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God ... Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels." (Rev 3:1-5) In that passage, Jesus judges certain believers "worthy" of eternal life in Heaven ... based on their "works". And blue "means" green. Sky "refers" to water ... Have you ever considered that God, the greatest mind of the universe, meant exactly what He said. It is our duty to use language accurately. It has been given to us to transmit ideas. If it is made to mean something else it becomes incoherent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzard3 Posted October 20, 2023 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 271 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/25/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2023 23 hours ago, AdHoc said: The grammar is "The Kingdom (out) OF Heaven", not "the Kingdom IN Heaven". A interesting interpretation. Where did the "out" come from? And it is this Kingdom of Jesus Christ and His Father that is set before the Corinthians, Galatians and Ephesians and you and I as a REWARD for Obedience. What is the reward for obedience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzard3 Posted October 20, 2023 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 271 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/25/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2023 23 hours ago, AdHoc said: 1st Corinthians 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21 say NOTHING about salvation. they say NOTHING about eternal life. In that case, what do you think those verses mean for a believer to not "inherit the kingdom of God"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted October 20, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 350 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,514 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,415 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2023 @AdHoc, you have the patience of Job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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