Are you sure that you shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

[Vine Abider]

 

7 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Christians will not face Judgment Day. (this is all that was quoted by Buzzard 3 - Dennis goes on to describe the Bema judgement in his actual post)

 

1 hour ago, Buzzard3 said:

Really?

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body."  2Cor 5:10

Just so we are clear, there is differentiation in the NT between the two main judgement seats: The Judgement (Bema) Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne in Rev 20:11-15.  Children of God will receive judgement, accountability and possible rewards (or loss) at the Bema, but believers will have no part of the great white throne - at the GWT anyone not in the book of life goes into the lake of fire.

 

[Dennis1209]

3 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

 

Just so we are clear, there is differentiation in the NT between the two main judgement seats: The Judgement (Bema) Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne in Rev 20:11-15.  Children of God will receive judgement, accountability and possible rewards (or loss) at the Bema, but believers will have no part of the great white throne - at the GWT anyone not in the book of life goes into the lake of fire.

 

Yes Sir,

I did not expound on that because the discussion was going nowhere. Nowhere lives across the street from somewhere. 

[Vine Abider]

14 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Yes Sir,

I did not expound on that because the discussion was going nowhere. Nowhere lives across the street from somewhere. 

Indeed . . .

I was also interested in the discussion on hope.  I posted this verse earlier, replying to @Buzzard3:

"Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see?"

What do you think of that?  I see in these two verses the entire panorama of our progressive salvation: We HAVE the firstfruits of the Spirit and we are now engaged in the salvation of our souls, eagerly waiting and groaning for something. And what do we groan for?  We have the HOPE of this sinful body of flesh being gone as we gain full sonship!

Today, as I was going over those verses, I got some light - a little picture of what that hope is . . . what will it be like without the sinful flesh!?!? 

[Vine Abider]

10 hours ago, Sower said:

Your friend says he needs motivation, a carrot on a string, to entice himself to move forward, to gain his rewards for himself.

So does God also given his children a carrot, a 'motivation' to catch our eye to give us a 'push' to help us do more to get rewards, and not just because of our understanding, or lack, to what's right, but simply because it's the right thing to do, even without any reward.
 

Thought 'love the Lord and love our neighbor' was sufficient.
God/others vs self.

(Back from a day trip now - hiking among an amazing grove of mountain Aspen trees turned bright golden in the sun!)

Well, I must admit I don't know quite the best way of answering this.  To be sure, love is the highest fulfillment, and if all we do is done in love, we are certainly building with good materials I would think . . .

Maybe thinking about a loving family household is a good way to look at this, because, that is what we've been brought into.  All are loved in this family, from the least mature to the most mature/adults.  And there is a family business that all are called to be in - helping build the new house.  Younger less mature children in the household don't do as much with this work as they just don't have the ability. But they are loved just the same, and receive all the care and attention they need to mature and grow, and become productive members in the "family business."

More mature ones help build according to their Father's desires and direction.  First Corinthians chapter 3 talks about how this house is to be built, hopefully using good materials (gold, silver, precious stone).  However, some of God's children won't use the proper materials (wood, hay, stubble).

So yes, the whole enterprise of God is about love - loving Him and each other.  But as we mature, we see He also has a plan to build something grand in the universe.  We are always loved members of His household, because we have been birthed with His life and are therefore His children.  But there is work to be done as well, which we are called into and are privileged to undertake with our Father and Christ our brother.

Therefore, as I see it, there is additional motivation for how we should build this house which we will share with our family - we are exhorted to build properly.  We see this in Matthew 5 with the faithful and unfaithful servants, and in many other places ---> Rewards for being faithful in a few things, and loss/angst for not being faithful/productive/effective (but not loss of eternal life as reborn children of God).

I hope that was an effective reply to your question - is it?

[Sower]

42 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

I hope that was an effective reply to your question - is it?

   Thanks VA. Great reply. I think better with word 'pictures.'
A short summary I found by P.E. Hewitt, the distinction between salvation and reward;

1) Salvation is a free gift; reward is earned.
2) Salvation is by faith; reward is by faithfulness.
3) Salvation is without merit; reward is meritorious.
4) Salvation is the result of a work by God for man.
reward is the result of the work by God in man.
5) Salvation is the start of the race;
reward is the finish of the race.

I suppose my point has been why is it we are able do better, be better, for a reward.
I assumed our motives/incentives would be questioned at the Bema judgement.
It appears I am wrong in that God makes it clear we should desire rewards.
Being faithful in our walk is allowing God to work in and through us.
This brings glory to God, abiding in Christ, bearing HIS fruit.(abiding = reward)
God has given us a motive to bring the silver gold and precious stones.
Rewards I understand is to be the purpose of this judgement.
That may lead to a position of authority after judgement.

Never studied the Bema judgement before. A lot to learn. Thanks VA for your reply.

I have acquired a book, "The Judgement Seat of Christ" a few days ago.
By Samuel L. Hoyt.    Biblical and Theological Study.     Reads good.

[Vine Abider]

3 minutes ago, Sower said:

   Thanks VA. Great reply. I think better with word 'pictures.'
A short summary I found by P.E. Hewitt, the distinction between salvation and reward;

1) Salvation is a free gift; reward is earned.
2) Salvation is by faith; reward is by faithfulness.
3) Salvation is without merit; reward is meritorious.
4) Salvation is the result of a work by God for man.
reward is the result of the work by God in man.
5) Salvation is the start of the race;
reward is the finish of the race.

I suppose my point has been why is it we are able do better, be better, for a reward.
I assumed our motives/incentives would be questioned at the Bema judgement.
It appears I am wrong in that God makes it clear we should desire rewards.
Being faithful in our walk is allowing God to work in and through us.
This brings glory to God, abiding in Christ, bearing HIS fruit.(abiding = reward)
God has given us a motive to bring the silver gold and precious stones.
Rewards I understand is to be the purpose of this judgement.
That may lead to a position of authority after judgement.

Never studied the Bema judgement before. A lot to learn. Thanks VA for your reply.

I have acquired a book, "The Judgement Seat of Christ" a few days ago.
By Samuel L. Hoyt.    Biblical and Theological Study.     Reads good.

I remember that book and checking Amazon it says I purchased it in 2018.  Frankly I don't remember much about it, but will dust it off and maybe we can have some discussion on it.

Those 5 points were great - sort of self-evident in their simplicity.

I view the who Bema thing as a little more in the order of "meat" rather than "milk."  And for the more mature (which makes more sense even to me as I write this).

And I think I understand your point about - why should we be more motivated about a reward?  But I think it has to do with having the fuller picture of what He's doing in building this house for all of us.

 

^{Ephesians 2:19-22}

  Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,  built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone. In Him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in Him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

[Buzzard3]

8 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

[1828] ἐλπίς elpis  1 Pet. 1:21; ἐπʼ ἐλπίδι, in security, with a guarantee,

Nope, this doesn't help you.

1Peter 1:21 says, "Through him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God."  

 

The "hope" in this verse refers to our hope in God to raise the dead, which is guaranteed, bcoz God raised Jesus from the dead.  It doesn't refer to our personal hope in salvation, which is a different matter.  

  In other words, that verse doesn't support your assertion that our hope in salvation is a certainty ... and nor does anything else you mentioned in your post.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Dennis1209]

12 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Indeed . . .

I was also interested in the discussion on hope.  I posted this verse earlier, replying to @Buzzard3:

"Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see?"

What do you think of that?  I see in these two verses the entire panorama of our progressive salvation: We HAVE the firstfruits of the Spirit and we are now engaged in the salvation of our souls, eagerly waiting and groaning for something. And what do we groan for?  We have the HOPE of this sinful body of flesh being gone as we gain full sonship!

Today, as I was going over those verses, I got some light - a little picture of what that hope is . . . what will it be like without the sinful flesh!?!? 

Yep, that is my view. Expressing my view as an allegory or similitude, a picture is worth a thousand words:

Changing the state you live in, moving to the perfect neighborhood and a wonderful abode that is under construction. You could not travel the distance to see it in person, but you have the blueprints and an excellent written and verbal description. You now have a glimpse, mental picture, and taste of your new home.

The earnest money, or a down payment, is deposited to show you are sincere and satisfy the contractual and legal requirements. The builder guarantees it will be built on schedule and on time. Your new home is guaranteed because the builder is making it for you, and you have the best, most potent banker backing you up, ensuring possession.

I know that is a sorry similitude, but for an old fogy with mush for brains, that is the best I could come up with. 

 

[farouk]

On 10/12/2023 at 9:10 AM, Buzzard3 said:

The mere fact that salvation is described as a "hope" in at least twenty NT verses is enough to consign OSAS to the rubbish bin.   OSAS contradicts all those verses by claiming salvation is not a hope, but a certainty. 

Throw in all the other verses that contradict OSAS and it becomes clear that OSAS is not biblical.  Imo, it's based on the misinterpretation of a few verses that, read in isolation, seem to indicate we are eternally and irrevocably saved as soon as we believe.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm not saved until I face Christ on Judgement Day and am granted eternal life.  

John 3.36 says: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life".

Not might have, not eventually could have, etc., but hath, has now, with assurance which the Holy Spirit can bring, indeed.

[farouk]

@Vine Abider Thanks for the 'like'; and of course Romans 8.38-39 and John's First Epistls contain much about assurance of eternal life in Christ which can already be known by faith now.