Are you sure that you shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

[Retrobyter]

29 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said:

Eph 2:8-9 doesn't disprove salvation through faith and works.  It simply says 

(a) faith is essential for salvation

(b) no one is saved by works alone.

Shalom, Buzzard3.

You're missing the point. The works are not YOUR works after the New Birth!

[Buzzard3]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

 The works are not YOUR works after the New Birth!

Are you saying a believer's actions and behaviour are not the result of his own free will?

What about a believer's sinful works ... who's works are they?

And how would you define "works"?  What are "works", exactly"?

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Retrobyter]

34 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said:

Eph 2:8-9 doesn't disprove salvation through faith and works.  It simply says 

(a) faith is essential for salvation

(b) no one is saved by works alone.

Here are some verses for you to consider:

2 Timothy 2:21; 3:17
Galatians 3:1ff
Hebrews 10:24
Colossians 1:10
Romans 1:16
Titus 2:14; 3:5
Ephesians 2:10
2 Corinthians 9:8

We're not "saved" (JUSTIFIED by God) BY good works; we're JUSTIFIED UNTO good works! The justification COMES FIRST, THEN we are empowered by the Ruwach haQodesh - the Holy Spirit of God - to DO good works!

Titus 3:3-8 (KJV)

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men (other human beings).

Galatians 3:1- (KJV)

 

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying,

"In thee shall all nations be blessed."

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written,

"Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for,

"The just shall live by faith."

12 And the law is not of faith: but,

"The man that doeth them shall live in them."

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written,

"Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

[Buzzard3]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying,

"In thee shall all nations be blessed."

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written,

You misunderstand what "law" and  "works of the law" means in those verses.  Paul is not referring to all law and all works, but the ritual/ceremonial laws of Moses that Christ did away with, such as circumcision and the dietary laws.  The moral laws of Moses remain, such as loving your neighbour (see Romans 13:8-10).

 

James 2:21 says Abraham was "justified by works".  Please explain.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Buzzard3]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

"though faith" means faith is essential for the promise.  Where does it say "faith alone"?

[Buzzard3]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men (other human beings).

Galatians 3:1- (KJV)

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done" means not by works alone ... it's not referring to faith and works.

[Retrobyter]

37 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said:

Are you saying a believer's actions and behaviour are not the result of his own free will?

What about a believer's sinful works ... who's works are they?

And how would you define "works"?  What are "works", exactly"?

Shalom, Buzzard3.

Okay, that's a good place to start. Let's define terms: "Works" are "deeds." "Good works" are "good deeds." The Greek word for "works" within these verses above is "ἔργων." Transliterated, it is "ergoon" (using an "oo" for an omega). It's the genitive (or ablative) plural of "ἔργον," transliterated "ergon" (using an "o" for an omicron):

Strong's entry is ...

2041 ergon ἔργον, ου, τό (er'-gon). From a primary (but obsolete) ergoo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:
-- deed, doing, labour, work.

The four words following the colon-dash (: --) are how the word was translated into the English of the King James Version of the Bible. The Englishman's Concordance says that the word occurs in the Greek NT 174 times, in one of its forms. 

Now, let's look at the question you posed: "Whose works are they?"

BEFORE we were born again, they would have been our own works independently. AFTER we are born again, we become a NEW CREATURE (or CREATION).

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Now, let's talk about this passage:

How is one a "New Creature" in Christ or in the Messiah? Well, Christ already gave us this information:

John 14:16-26 (KJV)

16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot,

"Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?"

23 Jesus answered and said unto him,

"If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

Later He said,

John 15:26-27 (KJV)

26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning."

So, AFTER one is born again or justified by God, the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) will "make His abode with us," and "shall testify of Yeeshuwa` the Messiah." Then, He said, "and ye also shall bear witness!" So, we become ONE with the Holy Spirit of God!

These words mean that we WORK TOGETHER the deeds that are ours to perform! But first, the Holy Spirit must bear witness TO US and THEN we shall bear witness TOGETHER to others!

So, they are OUR works - the works of the Holy Spirit AND us.

Then, you also asked about our "SINFUL works," which Paul called "works of the flesh." They are CONTRARY to the works that the Holy Spirit of God desires to work THROUGH us by working TOGETHER WITH us. He will keep bearing witness of Yeeshuwa` to us, but He has already said, "My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh." (Genesis 6:3). And, we know that the author of Hebrews said this:

Hebrews 12: 1-13 (KJV)

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses (the faith chapter, chapter 11), let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children,

"My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

So, if one was never chastised or SPANKED by God when he went astray, then he was NEVER A SON! HOWEVER, if one IS a SON of God, then he SHALL be SPANKED by God when he goes astray! And, sometimes to the point of physical DEATH!

Paul said to the people of Korinth,

1 Corinthians 11:27-32 (KJV)

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep (have died). 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

And, we also have THIS example:

Acts 5:1-11 (KJV)

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said,

"Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God!"

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. 6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8 And Peter answered unto her,

"Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much?"

And she said,

"Yea, for so much."

9 Then Peter said unto her,

"How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out."

10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. 11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

So, God SPANKS those who are not working WITH His Holy Spirit! Are they still His sons? His children? YES!!! But, God is NOT MOCKED! They were still "born again," and they will be raised to live eternally, but they FAILED HIM in this life!

[Buzzard3]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

We're not "saved" (JUSTIFIED by God) BY good works; we're JUSTIFIED UNTO good works! The justification COMES FIRST, THEN we are empowered by the Ruwach haQodesh - the Holy Spirit of God - to DO good works!

James 2:24-26  says otherwise:  "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone ... faith without works is dead."

According to you, dead faith will produce good works!!

[Buzzard3]

12 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Let's define terms: "Works" are "deeds." "Good works" are "good deeds."

In James 2:24-26, for example,"works" refers to keeping  God's commandments - obedience, in other words.  Other words for (good) works and obedience are righteousness and holiness. 

Salvation through faith and works means salvation through faith and obedience.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Buzzard3]

43 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

So, God SPANKS those who are not working WITH His Holy Spirit! Are they still His sons? His children? YES!!! But, God is NOT MOCKED! They were still "born again," and they will be raised to live eternally, but they FAILED HIM in this life!

Your "faith alone" doctrine says a believer can spend his life raping and murdering countless little children, for example, and God will still grant him eternal life.