Are you sure that you shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

[Buzzard3]

On 10/20/2023 at 12:52 AM, AdHoc said:

God's council in Genesis 1:26-28 is that man rule the earth and its environs. This thought still persists in Psalm 8. Abraham is promised the LAND for "an everlasting possession". Daniel 2 says that God's Kingdom will "fill the whole earth". Abraham's inheritance is extended by our Lord in Romans 4:13 to "the whole world".

Our Lord Jesus prays for god's kingdom to COME (as He stood on earth), the 12 Apostles rule the 12 Tribes of Israel. Both Peter and Paul seek a "crown", the martyrs are guaranteed a throne and a crown. The grammar is "The Kingdom (out) OF Heaven", not "the Kingdom IN Heaven". Luke 19:17-19 says we are to rule cities, and these must be cities of the heathen because Revelation 2:27, 12:10 ad 19:15 says that we are to rule the Nations. Finally, in Revelation 11 it is the "Kingdoms of THIS WORLD that have become the kingdoms of our God.".

"the kingdom of God is in the midst of you" (Luke 17:21) ... Jesus refers to himself as "the kingdom of God".

Compare to, "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life'"  (John 14:6).

 

"Simon Peter said to him, 'Lord, where are you going?' Jesus answered, 'Where I am going you cannot follow me now; but you shall follow afterward.'”  (John 13:36)

 

Conclusion:  The "kingdom of God" is wherever Jesus is.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Vine Abider]

9 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

 A curious choice of words that could easily be misconstrued:  If we are already assured of our salvation, there's no need to "hope" for our salvation.

Therefore, by "we are saved", the writer doesn't mean we are literally now already saved and assured of salvation.

 

The writer then goes on to say, "we hope for what we do not YET see, we WAIT for it patiently."

 

What I see is the three main stages of salvation in those verses: 

1) Our spirits were regenerated when we received Him into us

2) Our souls are now being saved - transformed by His indwelling us

3) Our hope is that our bodies will be then be transfigured.

I see that He starts by getting into our deepest part (our spirit) and we are reborn as children of God.  He then, from that starting point, spreads in us and causes us to mature and grow (transformation) in His life.  Our hope is that this spreading will culminate in the changing of our unchanged flesh into a glorified body. (at which point we will be fully matured, that is, sons of the living God, ready for our placement as sons in His government)

[AdHoc]

13 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said:

A interesting interpretation.  Where did the "out" come from?

 

What is the reward for obedience?

 

3 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said:

In that case, what do you think those verses mean for a believer to not "inherit the kingdom of God"?

God made everything. The most prominent characteristic of His creation is Government, or order. Isaiah 45:18 says;

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited

The word "vain" is the same word used in Genesis 1:2 and means "chaos". These two verses can only be reconciled (for there are no contradictions in scripture) if something happened between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. And a study of Genesis 1:2 shows that its correct rendering is; 

2 But the earth BECAME VAIN, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What ever happened is not directly said, but strong evidence emerges that Lucifer was the previous governor of the earth and mismanaged it. I refer you to Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 for your own decision. The three words used in Isaiah 45:18, "created", "made", and "formed" are three different words and mean respectively that God "created" (bara - Heb.), that is, made out of nothing, "made" (Asah - Heb.) out of existing materials, and "formed" (yatsar - Heb.) as a potter forms clay. In Genesis 1 Gd only "created" the earth and "created" the living creatures because the soul of man and animals did not exist before.

Otherwise, in Genesis Chapter 1 the word "made" is used. That is, what happened in six days was a RESTORATION "made" out of materials already at hand. Into this restored, or pristine earth, God inserts man as the new governor. Three salient words dominate Genesis 1:26-28: (1) Image and Likeness, (2) "subdue", and (3) "rule". God's plan was to have a creature acting, deciding and feeling like God would, FIRST to subdue a rebellion and then to rule with God's style of rule.

To achieve His plan with man, "who was made lower than the angels" (Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2), God designed man to be a Vessel to contain God Himself. God would then dwell in man (individual and corporate) and enable man, through His divine life, to be like God in disposition, and have the power to to deal with forces larger than he was. The way to achieve this was through the mouth - eating the fruit of the Tree of Life. Man was then to embark on subjugating any power and/or principality that did not promote God's government. And once this was done, to administer the EARTH in a godly fashion.

We know the rest of the story. Man failed. Salvation is the process of restoring a man to God's image and likeness (Rom.8:29), and the Kingdom is when those who have been found worthy will take their seats as co-kings of this earth with Jesus Christ. Salvation could not be achieved by man but the kingdom is a matter of training and self discipline - works.

I have a family matter right now, but will return with more - hopefully late tonight CET.

[Buzzard3]

On 10/19/2023 at 9:37 AM, AdHoc said:

To "see" the Kingdom one must be resurrected with Christianity (1st Cor.15:23). To "ENTER" the Kingdom you need to be born out of the Holy Spirit and out of water.

What does it mean to "see" the Kingdom?

What does it mean ti "enter" the kingdom?

 

What do you think the following verse means?

"Strive for ... the holiness without which no one will see the Lord"  (Heb 12:14)

 

[Buzzard3]

On 10/19/2023 at 9:37 AM, AdHoc said:

To "ENTER" the Kingdom you need to be born out of the Holy Spirit and out of water.

"out of water"?

 

John 3:5 says, "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.'"  

 

The word "born" of course refers to "born again" in v.3.  What do you think the words "by water and the Spirit" mean?

Edited October 20, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Buzzard3]

On 10/19/2023 at 10:25 PM, AdHoc said:

In the gospels the Lord issued a number of warnings to believers. In the letters many warnings to Christians are published. In Revelation Chapter 2, 3 and 18, warning are issued to the Ekklesia. This defies your theory. A Christian/Believer CAN sin and stil be a Christian/Believer.

I never claimed otherwise.  

 

You didn't answer my question, so I'll try again: 

The text (1John 2:3-6) says a believer who doesn't "keep his [Christ's] commandments" ...

(a) does not "know" Christ,

(b) is a "liar", 

(c) the "truth is not in him", 

(d) is not "in him" (not "in" Christ),

(e) does not abide in Christ.

Does that sound like a believer who's on the road to salvation?

On 10/19/2023 at 10:25 PM, AdHoc said:

Weakness, failure and even rebellion do not change a Believers status.

Depends what you mean by "rebellion".

As to your insistence on "dead faith", have you ever considered that there is faith unto salvation

 

Separating faith from works is not biblical.

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?  ... a man is justified by works and not by faith alone ... faith without works is dead"  (James 2:14-26)

Take the example of a saved man. the work of Christ is applied because he believes. But he refuses to give alms because he has no faith that God will meet his needs later. Will his not giving alms undo Christ's work?

What is "a saved man"?   

 If by "the work of Christ" you mean the Cross, no one can undo the justification provided by the Cross, because it's unconditional - it applies to everyone - believers and unbelievers alike.  That is to say, the Cross makes salvation possible for everyone.  

[Buzzard3]

On 10/20/2023 at 1:00 AM, AdHoc said:

Now I'm lost. We discuss scripture from John concerning "HAVING" eternal life. Were is heaven in all this?

No one has eternal life until they die and are judged worthy of eternal life by Christ, which consequently opens the door to Heaven. 

[Buzzard3]

20 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your trap was clever - but not for me - thanks.

Huh?

20 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 But I doubt if you'll come to the meaning of Ephesians 2:8.

I would be very interested in how you reconcile Eph 2:8 with James 2:24 - "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

[Vine Abider]

21 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said:

No one has eternal life until they die and are judged worthy of eternal life by Christ, which consequently opens the door to Heaven. 

You certainly see our salvation differently. I'm curious - were you brought up that way and/or what denomination(s) did you get that from? 

Groups I've been in since the 70s taught that eternal life starts when we were born-again and can't be lost, and taught progressive salvation (we were saved with a regenerated spirit, our souls are now being saved, later our bodies will be saved).

Have you looked at this thread below? It provides two sets of verses another brother put together, which either seem to advocate for your paradigm or mine.  In looking through these, I can see where some verses might be construed to show what you are saying.  Can you see any verses at all that might possibly show eternal life can't be lost?

 

[AdHoc]

To @Buzzard3, info @Dennis1209, @Vine Abider

With your permission (i hope), I'll continue my posting of page 23 on the Kingdom.

A Kingdom is defined as a king and his sphere of authority. If a king delegates his authority and goes on journey, his delegates exercise His authority. If the king returns he may continue with His delegates, as Pharaoh did with Joseph, or he may continue as a sovereign like Nebuchadnezzar after his isolation. Daniel predicted, in Aramaic, what was to befall the Gentiles who God had given authority to. Babylon and three other following world powers would exercise  rule over the earth and then be replaced by God's kingdom (2:34-35). But from various scriptures like Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, it is clear that the previous governments were heavenly and spiritual.

When our Lord Jesus came the first time the problem He faced was not the Roman Empire. It was Israel's sin and sins. So His tactic was to first attack the Deceiver and his kingdom and leave off judgment of men to give them time to repent and be reconciled to God. So you rightly said that if our Lord cast out demons then the kingdom was "among" them. This overture was refused by Israel and the King (Jesus) retreated to heaven with full authority to raise up another people who would corporately subdue and rule the earth - the Ekklesia, or, the Church. Since His departure, the only sphere of rule God has ON EARTH is the Church. Thus, John, in Revelation 1:9, is in the Church, but calls it the "kingdom and patience" of the Lord.

For a set time God has prepared a way for men to be reconciled to God and to be trained to subdue and rule - the Church age. For man to be qualified for this lofty calling, he needed the following:
1. His sin and sins needed to be put away.
2. He needed a New and additional birth to become a son of God for inheriting, and seed of Christ to have His life to be like Him
3. He needed a transforming work in his life to change the fallen character toa godly one
4. He needed a new and heavenly body to be fit to be a co-king with a glorified Lord

Points 1, 2 and 4 were impossible for fallen and corrupt man to achieve. So our Lord Jesus does these works for him. the Holy Spirit applies them to any man who believes in the work of Christ. Point #3 needs the cooperation of the man. Through eating Christ, studying His Word, self denial and a love relationship with Jesus, the man, in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, is transformed into the iage of Christ (Rom.8:29, 2nd Cor.3:18). That is, the man's WORKS decide if he is qualified or not to be co-king with Jesus.

The sacrifice that a man must make to achieve this high standard is the loss of his "soul-life" (psuche - Gk. - Matt.16:25). Not all Christians will be motivated to do this. So God, in His wisdom, sets aside the first 1,000 years of His eternal Kingdom as a REWARD. This Kingdom will be established ON EARTH when Jesus returns and will include both subduing and ruling the Nations (Rev.2:27). Those found to have followed Christ, to have been obedient and to have had an intimate walk with Jesus, will be co-kings in the following 1,000 years AND be the guests to Christ's Wedding Feast.

Thus, salvation from God's wrath and retribution, rebirth and resurrection are achieved by CHRIST'S WORK and the believers FAITH in this Person. His entry into the coming Kingdom is by WORKS of righteosness. The threat facing a wayward Christian is not loss of his salvation, but a refusal by the Judge, Jesus, for that man to ENTER the kingdom as a co-king.

I would encourage you to consider this because ...

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. (Mt 13:19)

Tonight the word of the kingdom was sown in your heart. Give it time to catch and grow. Fertilize it with every reference to the Kingdom. Water it with prayer. Weed it by not changing the meaning of words. Give it time some more time to ripen. Remember - they who failed was because they "did not UNDERSTAND it".