Reformed Restriction

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

Here's another place where they are speaking to the Jews after that also

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Just adding to Anne2's scriptures

[Anne2]

55 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Here's another place where they are speaking to the Jews after that also

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Just adding to Anne2's scriptures

Anne likes it :-)

[Anne2]

10 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Sis, you had asked after the word "bride" after the initial scriptures I had provided and I just pasted them there with nothing further. I felt it a little senseless to go there (into the more obscure) if what is called a mystery has been made plain for us concerning the man and his wife as Paul said it pertained to Christ and the church (I added them back in again below) but most of the bride verses show up in Revelation and ends up killing the conversation by flying off into the far more obscure when Paul tells us very plainly, that this great mystery from the beginning concerning a man and his wife pertains to no other but Christ and the Church (wife).

This is what I have minus some of the former comparisons

There's the bride, the bridegroom and the friend of the bridegroom

Jesus tells us who his friends are

John 15:4 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

We have the voice of the bridegroom and John's voice

John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord

Who bears record of the Son of God

John 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me

Who also tells us

John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him,  rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

And that

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

John's joy is fulfilled in hearing the bridegroom's voice. He is the friend, which stands and hears him and in pointing them to Jesus Christ (to both hear and follow for themselves) his own disciples having been prepared by him, these leave off of following him (he must decrease) and to follow after Jesus' (who must increase) for themselves.

Being the friend of the bridegroom,  and he says, "this my joy therefore is fulfilled."

Just as the apostles might say,

3 John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

Even as their their obedience is fulfilled

Phil 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

Their wish was for their perfection, and they desire to finish their course with joy serving Christ, taking the oversight over the flock of God for their good

As Paul

2 Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

2 Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

She/The church is to belong to Jesus Christ, not another

Ephes 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Ephes 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

And we have the Kingdom of God likened to ten virgins went forth to meet the bridegroom. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

The lamps of the foolish virgins had no oil, and their lamps had gone out and so they went off to buy oil

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

These virgins are shown as being ready and it says, they who were ready went in with him (the bridegroom) to the marriage

And then here it say, " the marriage of the Lamb is come

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

His wife hath made herself ready,

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white:  for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

It was granted her that she should be arrayed in what is the righteousness of the saints, when he is the righteousness of the saints

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe

To the wife having made herself ready  was granted that she should be arrayed  in the righteousness of saints

A brides attire

Jeremiah 2:32 Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Comparing the brides attire to himself there

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. 

And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

So we have the wife has made herself ready in Rev 19:7 and then also after the first heaven and earth have passed away here

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Where John saw the holy city coming down from God out of heaven adorned as a bride

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men  and he will dwell with them follows this

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them,  and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And now here

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues,  and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Carrying him away in the spirit to a great and high mountain to show him that city

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city,  the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

She is described as

Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

A city has no need of either the sun or moon to shine "in it" here

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it,  and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Same, glory of God, and stone most precious and Lamb/light

Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious"

As Jesus Christ also is called a precious stone, and the light of the world, and the Lamb is the light of this city depicts to me of Christ in a people (a city on a hill) according to the particular description there, and also says,

... Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain,

and shewed me that great city

Where the glory of God did lighten it,

and the Lamb is the light thereof.

This is pretty much what I have, just posting these as far a I see them laid out so far, I don't argue with the scripture though so there's no debate with me unless something is not scripture, or the twisting the scripture or something like that, I prefer to confirm the scriptures whenever I can (and add further to other scriptures when I can) but not pit them or make them contradict.

My goodness FOF, what a full post. That took some time and effort. NICE! And thank you

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

12 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

My goodness FOF, what a full post. That took some time and effort. NICE! And thank you

Thank you Anne2, if you have anything that can be added to those that I might have missed that can be worked in as you might see them please add to them if you do. More always helps.

God bless you Sis

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Thank you as well. It's always nice to know I have been clear. Does not always happen LOL.

Ok. Honestly I am not processing the relevance here. Sorry, I can be thick at times as well :-). Ok, so he was speaking to specific assembly of the Church. 

He did the same here

Rom. 15:25  But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26  For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
 

Again, I am not grasping the issue here. I do not know what you mean by personally. Do you mean not to take disagreement personally? I would agree with that.

Paul did often speak to specific people. This in Romans may have some relevance to the discussion (not sure).

 

Hi Annie,

Sorry it wasn`t clear. Yes, that`s right Paul did talk to individual or groups of people and thus Paul is not always (by the Holy Spirit) talking to us, or believers in general. 

Now we were looking at 2 Cor. 11: 2 & I said Paul was just talking to his disciples. Then we read on further in 2 Cor. 11 and in v. 8 & 9 we read more that Paul specifically is saying to his disciples - he hadn`t robbed them etc. 

So, we can read all of this but must note who is talking to whom and does it apply to us. I see that Paul is talking to the disciples he made and is concerned for them.

I don`t see that Paul is going to present me to Jesus (as he wants for his disciples) for I know that Jesus Himself will present me to Himself. (Jude 24)

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Sis, you had asked after the word "bride" after the initial scriptures I had provided and I just pasted them there with nothing further. I felt it a little senseless to go there (into the more obscure) if what is called a mystery has been made plain for us concerning the man and his wife as Paul said it pertained to Christ and the church (I added them back in again below) but most of the bride verses show up in Revelation and ends up killing the conversation by flying off into the far more obscure when Paul tells us very plainly, that this great mystery from the beginning concerning a man and his wife pertains to no other but Christ and the Church (wife).

This is what I have minus some of the former comparisons

There's the bride, the bridegroom and the friend of the bridegroom

Jesus tells us who his friends are

John 15:4 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

We have the voice of the bridegroom and John's voice

John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord

Who bears record of the Son of God

John 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me

Who also tells us

John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him,  rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

And that

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

John's joy is fulfilled in hearing the bridegroom's voice. He is the friend, which stands and hears him and in pointing them to Jesus Christ (to both hear and follow for themselves) his own disciples having been prepared by him, these leave off of following him (he must decrease) and to follow after Jesus' (who must increase) for themselves.

Being the friend of the bridegroom,  and he says, "this my joy therefore is fulfilled."

Just as the apostles might say,

3 John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

Even as their their obedience is fulfilled

Phil 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

Their wish was for their perfection, and they desire to finish their course with joy serving Christ, taking the oversight over the flock of God for their good

As Paul

2 Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

2 Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

She/The church is to belong to Jesus Christ, not another

Ephes 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Ephes 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

And we have the Kingdom of God likened to ten virgins went forth to meet the bridegroom. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

The lamps of the foolish virgins had no oil, and their lamps had gone out and so they went off to buy oil

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

These virgins are shown as being ready and it says, they who were ready went in with him (the bridegroom) to the marriage

And then here it say, " the marriage of the Lamb is come

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

His wife hath made herself ready,

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white:  for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

It was granted her that she should be arrayed in what is the righteousness of the saints, when he is the righteousness of the saints

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe

To the wife having made herself ready  was granted that she should be arrayed  in the righteousness of saints

A brides attire

Jeremiah 2:32 Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Comparing the brides attire to himself there

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. 

And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

So we have the wife has made herself ready in Rev 19:7 and then also after the first heaven and earth have passed away here

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Where John saw the holy city coming down from God out of heaven adorned as a bride

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men  and he will dwell with them follows this

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them,  and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And now here

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues,  and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Carrying him away in the spirit to a great and high mountain to show him that city

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city,  the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

She is described as

Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

A city has no need of either the sun or moon to shine "in it" here

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it,  and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Same, glory of God, and stone most precious and Lamb/light

Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious"

As Jesus Christ also is called a precious stone, and the light of the world, and the Lamb is the light of this city depicts to me of Christ in a people (a city on a hill) according to the particular description there, and also says,

... Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain,

and shewed me that great city

Where the glory of God did lighten it,

and the Lamb is the light thereof.

This is pretty much what I have, just posting these as far a I see them laid out so far, I don't argue with the scripture though so there's no debate with me unless something is not scripture, or the twisting the scripture or something like that, I prefer to confirm the scriptures whenever I can (and add further to other scriptures when I can) but not pit them or make them contradict.

Hi FlameOfFire,

Lots of good scriptures there. I think where we differ is that I believe the OT was written about God`s promises to Israel and the gospels were mainly written concerning what Jesus said to the Jews when He was on earth.

I believe all that is for us to learn of God and His purposes for Israel and the nations.

Then in the epistles I see that Jesus the Head of His Body is writing specific things for us in His purpose for His Body.

So let us encourage each other, (despite the differences) -

`Brethren , I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal of the upward (on top) calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Therefore, let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. ` (Phil. 3: 13 - 15)

Meaning that the Lord is guiding us all into truth.

[Anne2]

7 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi FlameOfFire,

Lots of good scriptures there. I think where we differ is that I believe the OT was written about God`s promises to Israel and the gospels were mainly written concerning what Jesus said to the Jews when He was on earth.

I believe all that is for us to learn of God and His purposes for Israel and the nations.

Then in the epistles I see that Jesus the Head of His Body is writing specific things for us in His purpose for His Body.

So let us encourage each other, (despite the differences) -

`Brethren , I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal of the upward (on top) calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Therefore, let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. ` (Phil. 3: 13 - 15)

Ah, I think this post gives me a better idea of where you are coming from than your prior post to me.  We do disagree if you are An israel onlyist.

[Marilyn C]

1 minute ago, Anne2 said:

Ah, I think this post gives me a better idea of where you are coming from than your prior post to me.  We do disagree if you are An israel onlyist.

That`s fine for we know the Lord is guiding us all in truth.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

31 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi FlameOfFire,

Lots of good scriptures there. I think where we differ is that I believe the OT was written about God`s promises to Israel and the gospels were mainly written concerning what Jesus said to the Jews when He was on earth.

I believe all that is for us to learn of God and His purposes for Israel and the nations.

Then in the epistles I see that Jesus the Head of His Body is writing specific things for us in His purpose for His Body.

So let us encourage each other, (despite the differences) -

`Brethren , I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal of the upward (on top) calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Therefore, let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. ` (Phil. 3: 13 - 15)

Meaning that the Lord is guiding us all into truth.

Thank you for letting me know a little more about where you are coming from. Marilyn C We will mostly disagree on more than we agree with but it is something I will keep in mind before engaging in further discussions. 

That portion of scripture you quoted starts out this way though

Phil.3

[1] Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
[3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
[11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
[12] Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
[13] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
[14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
[15] Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
[16] Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
[17] Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
[18] (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
 

 

 

[Anne2]

Hi Marilyn,

I do agree with one aspect of what you say. I have come to think of this aspect of Christian unity in this way.  Israel as a nation was made up of twelve tribes. Each tribe was given a blessing by covenant. Each having a portion of a whole (fulness) blessing which was to Abraham their father. When these twelve were in unity, each tribe shared in the operation of the blessing of the others. ie the fulness of the blessing. Divided they do not enjoy the fulness of the blessing.

I think it can be the Same with the Church. 

Ge 30:27  And Laban said unto him, I pray thee, if I have found favour in thine eyes, tarry: for I have learned by experience that the LORD hath blessed me for thy sake.
Ge 30:30  For it was little which thou hadst before I came, and it is now increased unto a multitude; and the LORD hath blessed thee since my coming: and now when shall I provide for mine own house also?

Is the Blessing of Abraham full without the nations promised to him? No.
Ga 3:14  That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
 

Heb 11: is not just speaking of Jew's. "They"  begins with Able and is inclusive of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Should we be surprised at this? Not at all

Ro 4:13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

Heb 11:4  By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
 

Blessings to you as Well Marilyn

Edited November 11, 2023 by Anne2