The Jewish Jesus

[Starise]

1 hour ago, AnOrangeCat said:

Completely hear you that it's not something a western mind wants to hear. Slavery is a touchy subject and tends to be regarded as universally evil, but at the time the elements of recompense and deterrent was present. Without it someone could "borrow" money with no intention of paying it back. Imprisonment wasn't so much a thing back then and both it or something like a beating would leave the lender without compensation. The OT also seems to have made a distinction between those who were slaves due to circumstances and those who were forced into it in the way we think of slavery through a modern lens. Exodus 21:16: "Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death."

 

I see you get it. This is very difficult to try to explain to someone else 

54 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

To understand the difference between the OT and NT, it helps to be reminded that the NT is to establish individuals in righteousness and holiness through their relationship with the Father, by way of the Son as Mediator, and the Holy Spirit as personal Lord.

The OT Law existed to maintain the holiness of the Promised Land. Even if someone was identified as "blameless by the Law", they had not attained the righteousness of God by faith, for righteousness could not be attained by Law.

In a nutshell I see this as saying, God never changes although the bible is a progression of events which when looked back at, have changed quite a bit, even though most legal systems are based on "Judeo Christian" law, at least those who haven't begun to be destroyed by modernists.

MANY Jewish persons go into law.  I've often wondered if there is a connection some of them feel to the law.

We are now readying for the new kingdom here on earth at some point in the future. The cross sealed the fate of all other kingdoms and powers. The final King  sits atop His rightful throne and will relocate here.

54 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Therefore, the Law acknowledges the ways of man, and sets forth statutes by which they could continue in the land and enjoy the Presence of the Lord.

So there are statutes with regards to slavery, this is not an endorsement of slavery, but the regulations prove to be very compassionate, with restrictions on the abuse of the practice. One must understand that this was the means that someone was required to make good on debt, as acknowledged in the NT.

I still see slavery as slavery, but as you say God did not endorse it. I have used the laws on divorce as a comparative example. Bad things happen and there are laws for it. People were not punished for getting divorces, other than the tragic damage done to themselves and their families. Apparently slavery was bad but "legalized".

Those who cry foul about these passages often support abortion, which is a severe contradiction. Harm to men is harm to men no matter when it happened or who is responsibe. Lowering our fellow man is not in keeping with the golden rule.

[Marathoner]

7 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

Completely hear you that it's not something a western mind wants to hear. Slavery is a touchy subject and tends to be regarded as universally evil, but at the time the elements of recompense and deterrent was present. Without it someone could "borrow" money with no intention of paying it back. Imprisonment wasn't so much a thing back then and both it or something like a beating would leave the lender without compensation. The OT also seems to have made a distinction between those who were slaves due to circumstances and those who were forced into it in the way we think of slavery through a modern lens. Exodus 21:16: "Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death."

 

Today, when we think of slavery, it's chattel slavery. That slavery is addressed by the passage from Exodus. 

However, the slavery permitted by the Lord is, as it exists today, contractual service. A good example of that was my term of enlistment in the U.S. Army. During my enlistment, the federal government literally owned my body. I was their slave.

They provided for all of my needs in exchange for my life in service. 

When I was granted leave, I was held responsible to return to duty in the same condition. Yes, getting a sunburn --- or breaking a limb --- during leave could result in action being taken against me when I returned to duty. Was this common? No. Could it happen? Yes. The Uniform Code of Military Justice permitted that. 

It was at the discretion of command (my slave master). 

It's representative of the slavery permitted by the Law of Moses. If my slave owner mistreated or intentionally harmed me, they were held liable. In the modern day, this takes the form of service-connected disability pensions, lawsuits, and so on. 

The Lord was pleased that I served my term of enlistment faithfully. It's not what we do but rather, how we do what we do that matters. Diligence and devotion to our duty is the criteria. That's the honor of the indentured servant (slave) lauded by the apostle Paul. 

[Marathoner]

Our slavery to righteousness in Christ is typified by the indentured servant being freed by his master (Deuteronomy 15). The slave may not wish to go free, declaring that they love their Master and wish to serve him for the rest of their life instead. Their Master has the earlobe of the slave nailed to the door post of their house.

They become the bondservant of their Master. Thus, we are bondservants of Jesus Christ. He set us free, but we did not wish to go. 

[Truswell]

19 hours ago, Know Jah said:

the statement that the God of OT is different than God of NT is puzzeling because of whats stated at Heb 13:8 that God don't change.

The I AM is a God of peace and led the Israelites out of Egypt peacefully, but then it all changed.

Remember, after 400 years in Egypt, they had grown up with the Egyptian gods. As you say, God is unchanging, and it is understandable that they continued to worship the gods they were familiar with. They are all there in the Bible, as they wandered in the desert, mentioned by name, Baal, the graven images, the golden calf, etc, etc.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Truswell

[Starise]

4 hours ago, Truswell said:

The I AM is a God of peace and led the Israelites out of Egypt peacefully, but then it all changed.

Remember, after 400 years in Egypt, they had grown up with the Egyptian gods. As you say, God is unchanging, and it is understandable that they continued to worship the gods they were familiar with. They are all there in the Bible, as they wandered in the desert, mentioned by name, Baal, the graven images, the golden calf, etc, etc.

I am hopeful many of them continued to worship Yahweh, even in  captivity.

[tim_from_pa]

On 11/5/2023 at 8:51 AM, Starise said:

I don't know why this is an obstacle to Christianity for some people, because if Jesus had been Greek or Italian, He would have still been some nationality.

The significance is in His lineage, so it isn't as if He suddenly popped on the scene with no background, There were many preparations to the Lord arriving here on earth. coming in the form of prophecy which aligned with His arrival. This further verified His claims.

That some seem to see inconsistencies  in the fabric of the bible would have the effect of eroding the main message of it. For this reason I think it's important to rebut these supposed inconsistencies and straighten out the myths that circulate today. 

Yes.  The lineage was the ruling line of Judah, and all those promises made to the Patriarchs were there for a reason, although the way some see Jesus he might as well popped out of thin air and do not otherwise see the significance at all. It's what I often call "worshiping Jesus in a vacuum".

[Starise]

8 minutes ago, tim_from_pa said:

Yes.  The lineage was the ruling line of Judah, and all those promises made to the Patriarchs were there for a reason, although the way some see Jesus he might as well popped out of thin air and do not otherwise see the significance at all. It's what I often call "worshiping Jesus in a vacuum".

Often "they" come up with a biased God due to those connections, which is primarily why I brought up race. Did race and the leaning towards the Jews matter so far as the rest of us?

Might not be an optimal comparison, but I think of Joseph and his brothers. Even though Joseph was favored, his brothers eventually partook in all of those blessings. None of his brothers endured prison or being unfairly accused. In that aspect of this, Joseph wasn't necessarily blessed. He was used for all of the footwork necessary to make the events transpire.

The Jewish people are often seen as a blessed people, however they had a responsibility they shirked, and dearly paid for it. God never let them off the hook since He is a fair God.

[Truswell]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

I am hopeful many of them continued to worship Yahweh, even in  captivity.

Just to give you an idea, from the Jewish Encylopieda

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14059-stone-and-stone-worship

.

[kwikphilly]

I don't see any " myths" as stumbling blocks creating  pre-conceived notions about Jesus regarding"Race",not in my experience anyway

What I do see is His Deity challenged because unless it is Revealed by Holy Spirit I don't believe one can see WHO Jesus IS.... even amongst self proclaimed Christisns who will continue to debate that Jesus is GOD..... let's not even bring the "Trinity or Triune GodHead " into this but the realization that " to Know Him is to Love Him" otherwise they only know " about Him" and cannot wrap a finite mind around  the fact thst yes ,Jesus Was Fully HUMAN yet at the same time Fully GOD- that Knowledge & Understanding will never come by a carnal mind,not by logic,reason or academics- it is with the Heart and Mind of Chrst Jesus that the Teacher Reveals God's Truth

There are many stumbling blocks for the unbeliever as well as the carnal minded man who has indeed been Born Again- there's is one thst comes to steal,kill and destroy and goes back & forth seeking who he MAY devour- it's a spiritual war and that Truth is all too often ignored.

With love in Christ  ,Kwik

 

[Starise]

27 minutes ago, Truswell said:

Just to give you an idea, from the Jewish Encylopieda

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14059-stone-and-stone-worship

.

You assertion that the Jews were predisposed to idol worhip is accurate, and maybe one reason they spent 40 years wandering the desert in addition to not believing they could go in and conquer the giants.

They would have had access to those demonic false gods in Egypt, but I don't want to take this too far and say they were all idol worshippers or take this in a gnostic direction, know what I mean? There are exceptions to this, but the history of Jewish loyalty to God is rife with this sort of thing.

Before we cast a judgmental finger towards them though,  I look at all the luke warm Christians today and those who call themselves Christians, but aren't. Not much about human nature has changed.