Eating Unclean Food Is an Abomination to the Lord!

[Sower]

44 minutes ago, The_Patriot21 said:

And animal cruelty is being cruel to animals. Causing them undo suffering and pain.

Agreed.
The last deer I shot 50 yrs ago dropped immediately. It jumped up as I was almost on it and ran. I followed it, tracked it, blood trail,  for almost two miles and had to stop due to fenced land. I do not believe that shot deer suffered as we think animals suffer.

We often forget. At this very moment, billions, trillions of God's created creatures are literally eating or being eating limb by limb, ALIVE, by some other creature. Nature. Not cruelty, but design.

 

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

17 hours ago, farouk said:

I do feel that it's easy to fall in to legalism; and dietary issues are an area where this can happen particularly easily.

Hebrews of course contains strong warnings against going back into legalism and ritual.

If you are talking about the last back and forth, not at all farouk, neither of us (I do not believe) was arguing about food or drink,  whether it be the eating goat meat (young goat or old) or arguing over the drinking goat milk. I had just taken up looking at the actual verse "as it was written" which pertained to the "boiling of" a young goat very specifically in its own mother's milk (as that is how it is written). I kept trying to bring the verse back into its context as it pertained not to goat meat (in general) or goat's milk (in general) but a young goat in its own "mother's milk" (per scripture). In so doing I was informed that verse was in my head (and not at all scripture). 

The division here has nothing to do with eating or drinking.  There is no argument on my side of things against eating goat meat or drinking its milk.

Something I enjoy doing is cooking and you will often find that marinating tougher cuts of meats in milk has a tenderizing effect on them, and milk is mostly water.
But I have never heard of a cook that would even marinate veal (or a young calf) or kids (a young goat) at all because their meat is tender already, and that just in respects to cold marinating, and having nothing to do with boiling meat.

And the scripture does not say not to boil goat meat in milk, it was very specific.

My initial comments on the verse itself was basically why was this even written? Because who on earth would ever think to do something like that?

I only needed an answer to that.   

[choir loft]

On 11/21/2023 at 10:23 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, choir loft.

That's NOT a "Law"; that's a "Phariseeism," to coin a word. The LAW states,

Exodus 23:19 (KJV)

19 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

He said it THREE TIMES:

Exodus 34:26 (KJV)

26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Deuteronomy 14:21 (KJV) 

21 Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

The PRINCIPLE is this: "To seethe" means "to cook by boiling." It's a HEARTLESS ACT to take the baby's own mother's milk and boil the baby goat in it! It's shameful and repulsive! It's just plain wicked. This principle was applicable ANY day of the week, not just on Shabbat!

So, the principle was EXTENDED to doing the same with a calf in his mother's milk. Over time and with a LOT of "reasoning" and "justification," the P'ruwshiym (Pharisees) EXTENDED this to serving ANY dairy product with meat from ANY domesticated mammal, even if the server didn't know where the milk for the dairy product (such as cheese) came from or whether the hamburger was ground from the meat of a calf or a full grown steer or some other domesticated animal! It's OVERKILL, which was TYPICAL from the P'ruwshiym! And, kosher Rabbis have extended this practice to modern Judaism. Therefore, it's not kosher (clean) to eat a cheeseburger.

That's from where the "Law" comes! However, it's been SO "extended" and "overembelished," that it doesn't even RESEMBLE the original commandment, and the REASON for its existence is all but lost on people today! It's just a tradition.

BUT, is it now God's Law or is it MAN'S Tradition?

Regarding St. Paul's instruction, here's the story:

Acts 15:1-35 (KJV)

1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said,

"Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved."

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 

3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying,

"That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them,

"Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 

10 "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying,

"Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon (Simon Peter) hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 "'After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,' saith the Lord, 'who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.' 

19 "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner;

"The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, 'Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law': to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain ...
(1) from meats offered to idols,
(2) and from blood,
(3) and from things strangled,
(4) and from fornication:
from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. 32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them. 33 And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles. 34 Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still. 35 Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.

Then later, Paul said to the believers at Korinth,

1 Corinthians 8:1-13 (KJV)

1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. 9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Notice, here, that this is talking about "making a brother to offend," that is, "making a brother OFFEND - making him SIN!" It's not just "offending a brother," as though hurting the brother's feelings!  One who has so offended, has become an offender! His conscience was weak, still thinking there was some "god" to which a person could offer meat as a sacrifice.

Those who have been around for a while KNOW that there is only ONE God, and idols are just hunks of wood, rock, or metal which have NO power or ability to move! However, if one is still thinking of the idol as a "god," then it would be wrong for that person to eat the meat sacrificed to idols.

We who are stronger, knowing that idols are nothing, can safely eat the meat that was sacrificed to those hunks of wood, rock, or metal. HOWEVER, for the sake of the weaker brother, we should hold back from eating that meat offered to idols  so that the weaker brother, feeling bold, would go ahead and eat the meat, going against his conscience, and sinning in the process, because he still felt as though the idol was a god with some power of its own! But, the LORD God (YHWH Adonay) shares His power with NO ONE, and there is NO OTHER GOD but Him!

Paul's conclusion was, "If meat makes my brother sin, I will eat no such meat while the world stands, lest I make my brother sin."

In a similar fashion, one might embolden his brother "to commit a sin" if he still thinks "it's a sin to eat meat and dairy products at the same time," but those who understand the PURPOSE for the commandment know that the sin is in the HEARTLESSNESS, the LACK OF COMPASSION, not the eating!

THE POINT of my post, which you've completely missed......

is that Christians REJECT the LAW entirely.   

My example of buying a cheeseburger at McDonald's on Saturday was meant to illustrate a part of the LAW which isn't generally applicable to gentiles.  The example was meant to illuminate, NOT to inspire vomitus against the LAW.

Indeed Jesus predicted that in the Last Days LAWlessness would increase;

"And at that time many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. And many falseprophets will rise up and mislead many people. And because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will become cold." (Matt 12:10-12)

Today the church is DYING because it's respect for the LAW has eroded to the point of obscurity.  Secular people see it and mock the church's hypocrisy - for hypocrites they are indeed.  

Major denominations no longer state the Bible is THE Word of God.  They don't observe any need at all for repentance and they certainly don't consider the spiritual needs of their congregations or the lost of their respective cities.  Let the lost be damned.....local churches are only concerned about their traditions.

Don't preach to me about pharisees - for the church is a prime example of modern phariseeism gone berserk.  The church has followed Judaism into the SAME trap of traditionalism vs. LAW. 

Church leaders know the institution is dying, but don't understand why - even as they promote MORE lawLESSness among those who have come to them for spiritual guidance.

Today there is no such thing as REPENTANCE in the church - repentance based upon the LAW.  Jews still observe the need to perform repentance, but the church has long since abandoned it.  

This single aspect of religion, repentance, has negated all the power of religion and any hope of justification by the blood of Christ.  Not that the major denominations preach justification any more.....they don't.   One need only be a member of the church to be saved.....Jesus Christ is nothing.

Those who reject the LAW almost always default to an absurd pointless argument about dietary law, which doesn't apply to non-Jews....necessarily.

Thank you for your long pointless post.  It proves my point - the the church today is as far from God's eternal LAW as Hell is from Heaven.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by choir loft

[Bro.Tan]

For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 66:15-17) The Lord says' by the mouth of Isaiah that those that eat swine's flesh (pork) shall be consumed. 

Just in case we have forgotten who this Lord is, let us go to II Thessalonians chapter one, and start at the sixth verse and we will see that it is Jesus that Isaiah is referring to and not the Father. 

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (II Thessalonians 1:6-9) 

Note what the eighth verse states, "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God." Paul was quoting Isaiah the 66th chapter and the 15th verse, where it states, "For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." These individuals that receive the Lord's vengeance know Him not and obey not the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. The dietary law is part of the commandments. (He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.) (I John 2:4.) 

We must understand brothers and sisters there is no degree of sin. If we break one of the laws, we break them all, and the sentence for transgressing the Lord's laws is death. What we must do is keep ourselves from willful sin. 

[Bro.Tan]

Let us take a look at Noah for a moment. Take a look at this verse in Genesis the 9th chapter and the 3rd verse.

Some one might say, "see we can eat anything that our heart's desire." Let us reason together brothers and sisters. Who wrote the book of Genesis? Moses, when he was moved by the Holy Spirit, correct? Who wrote Leviticus the 11th chapter? Moses! So, everything that was created to be received shall be eaten. Let us back up to the 7th chapter of Genesis. When I first laid eyes on these two verses, I was amazed how even the simplest thing in the word of God is hidden to those that do not read His book. Take a look at this. 

And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. (Genesis 7:1-2) 

Here we see the dietary law being instituted. Here we see the difference in clean and unclean being shown seven chapters from the beginning of the book. So, this lets us know that the dietary law was brought into being along side the Royal law (commandments) even before Abraham came on the scene. Now that we have seen when the dietary law was instituted and also looked at the dietary law itself. 

[Anne2]

15 hours ago, Bro.Tan said:

Let us take a look at Noah for a moment. Take a look at this verse in Genesis the 9th chapter and the 3rd verse.

Ge 9:3  Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
It says just like the green herb. This goes back to here

Ge 1:30  And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
 

15 hours ago, Bro.Tan said:

And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. (Genesis 7:1-2) 

Altar kosher...

Ge 8:20  And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
 

[farouk]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

Ge 9:3  Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
It says just like the green herb. This goes back to here

Ge 1:30  And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
 

Altar kosher...

Ge 8:20  And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
 

@Anne2 Good to remember those verses you quoted from Genesis.

It can be a pity if ceremonial dietary issues today under the New Testament scheme of things can obscure ppl's appreciation of Gospel principles.

[Bro.Tan]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

Ge 9:3  Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
It says just like the green herb. This goes back to here

Ge 1:30  And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
 

Altar kosher...

Ge 8:20  And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
 

Again....Genesis 7:  1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. 2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, 9there went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

So you believe Genesis 9: 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 

You can eat every moving things that liveth as long as it's clean. The lord said he saw a righteous generation at that time, not someone trying to twist the Lord's word's to there want, just to eat unclean food.

This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten. Leviticus 11:46-47 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Leviticus 11:44) 

 

[Anne2]

16 minutes ago, farouk said:

@Anne2 Good to remember those verses you quoted from Genesis.

It can be a pity if ceremonial dietary issues today under the New Testament scheme of things can obscure ppl's appreciation of Gospel principles.

Clean and unclean for Noah was not dietary, unless you consider what was offered as sacrifice was for God's consumption only? Thanks farouk

[FJK]

4 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Clean and unclean for Noah was not dietary, unless you consider what was offered as sacrifice was for God's consumption only? Thanks farouk

The dietary laws were given quite a while after Noah's time had ended.