Rev 16:18 suggests the earth is much older than Adam/Eve

[RV_Wizard]

On 3/18/2024 at 9:17 AM, FreeGrace said:

I've already pointed out that 5 of the 32 translations on biblehub.com got tohu right in Gen 1:2.

Less than 16% of your own sources agree with you and over 84% do not.  You don't thing that tells you something?

[FreeGrace]

34 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

I've already pointed out that 5 of the 32 translations on biblehub.com got tohu right in Gen 1:2.

Less than 16% of your own sources agree with you and over 84% do not.  You don't thing that tells you something?

First, I was pointing out that I'm not the only one who understands what "tohu" really means.  

Second, as to my "own sources", how silly.  Your ONLY source is a flawed translation from the KJV, which many other translations copied without their brains in gear.  I have used all the uses of "tohu" throughout the OT (my only Source) to prove what "tohu" means, and you reject.

Third, you've never proved the existence of any object that is "formless".  And I've proven, with an example, that the use of "formless" only exists when a comparison is made.

iow, consider an object that has typical forms/shapes that distinguish the object.  Now consider another object of the SAME TYPE, but does NOT have those typical forms/shapes.  One could say that the object with the typical forms/shapes is 'formless'.  But that doesn't mean that object has NO form.  It just doesn't have the typical forms known for that particular kind of object.

Are you able to understand this?

And since Genesis 1 doesn't even describe the "forming" of the earth, it clearly WASN'T formless at any time.  

Fourth, KJV says "in the beginning God created (bara) the heavens and the earth and the earth was "tohu".

But Isa 45:18 says "God DID NOT create (bara) the earth "tohu".

If you don't see a direct and glaring contradiction between Isa 45:18 and the KJV, you either are totally blind or you have closed your eyes to the truth.

[enoob57]

On 1/1/2024 at 10:02 AM, RdJ said:

Satan must have fallen before Adam and Eve were created.

The problem with that is you have God blessing and sanctifying all that He created 

Genesis 2:1 (KJV)

[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

[2] And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So to hold to your view you have God blessing and sanctifying Lucifer's rebellion... and that would be theological suicide as to the character of God...

[enoob57]

This is some good scholarship on the OP
https://answersingenesis.org/genesis/gap-theory/

[RdJ]

9 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The problem with that is you have God blessing and sanctifying all that He created 

Genesis 2:1 (KJV)

[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

[2] And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So to hold to your view you have God blessing and sanctifying Lucifer's rebellion... and that would be theological suicide as to the character of God...

 

I don't see that He sanctified all that He had created in this text. He sanctified the sabbath. But if there's another text that says that then it means what He just created in day 1 to 6 in which I don't see that He created angels. The morning stars were already there before He started to create the earth.

[RV_Wizard]

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Second, as to my "own sources", how silly.  Your ONLY source is a flawed translation from the KJV, which many other translations copied without their brains in gear.

Have you realized yet that 16% is a minority view?  Of the versions you like, 0% mention a restoration.  There's a reason most Christians reject Gap theory.  It's wrong.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Third, you've never proved the existence of any object that is "formless".

I've demonstrated it, defined it and I gave examples.  Oh, but those pesky textbooks must be wrong.  They don't say what you've chosen to believe.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

One could say that the object with the typical forms/shapes is 'formless'.  But that doesn't mean that object has NO form.

Gibberish.  Things which are formless conform to the environment, like water, or to the influences of the wind, like gases or steam.  Only in the Barbarian's world does water have form; so he can stack it up to the mountains in one place without affecting the surrounding low lying areas.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

But Isa 45:18 says "God DID NOT create (bara) the earth "tohu".

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

It does NOT say "God DID NOT create (bara) the earth "tohu".

Now then, if God formed the earth to be inhabited, why did it sit around for billions of years and fall into destruction so that it had to be restored?  No matter how you try to spin it, there is no scenario in which your gap claim makes any sense at all.

[enoob57]

42 minutes ago, RdJ said:

I don't see that He sanctified all that He had created in this text. He sanctified the sabbath. But if there's another text that says that then it means what He just created in day 1 to 6 in which I don't see that He created angels. The morning stars were already there before He started to create the earth.

Genesis 2:1 (KJV)

[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Adequately all contained in the created heaven and earth... being the entirety of creation...  

[RdJ]

4 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

 

Genesis 2:1 (KJV)

[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Adequately all contained in the created heaven and earth... being the entirety of creation...  

And the first day was 24 hours in which He first created angels who were rejoicing when He laid the cornerstone after creating the heavens, then hovering over the waters, then create light, which was the day and the rest was the darkness, so He was creating angels on the evening of day one in darkness?

He did not call the darkness good.

Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
Genesis 1:3‭-‬4 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/gen.1.3-4.NKJV

But in Job it's not evil darkness.

To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? “Or who shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth and issued from the womb; When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band; When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors;
Job 38:6‭-‬10 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/job.38.6-10.NKJV

 

And Adam and Eve were created on the same day, but there was already the tree of good and evil and He only told Adam, before Eve came, so this was on day 6.

So there was evil already. How else could they get to know it? Knowledge = guinosco = by experience, know evil = know satan, so satan must have fallen already before God said: Let there be Light and I don't know what is meant with trading, I don't suppose he was selling gold to the other angels and making profit, but this sounds like it didn't happen on day 1, first singing a few hours, rejoice when the earth is made and then taking 1/3 of the angels away from God.

“Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. “By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
Ezekiel 28:12‭-‬17 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/ezk.28.12-17.NKJV

Eden with the holy mountain of God and fiery stones sounds like a heavenly Eden to me, not natural Eden on earth.

 

 

 

[RdJ]

If satan had not fallen yet, but God did create the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that would make God the author of evil. That's not possible. I even wonder if He knew that Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels would fall. Most say yes because He's God and knows everything and declares the end from the beginning, but I am still not convinced, because of how He created Adam and Eve in His own image, innocent. They had no clue and could not fathom that something as evil as satan existed and knowledge of evil is bad cause you get it by sinning. How could God have it then? Jesus was the innocent Lamb of God. My theory was that He did not know and got to know evil Himself when satan invented sin and sinned against Him and I still think that might be true. The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. That sounds to me like satan sinned and then He got a provision to save humans before He even started to create the natural.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_6.cfm

Hey I found a new reason why it has to be literal days and not ages. The sabbath. I was just thinking: Genesis 2 sounds also long, but I can see how you can fit that into one day. No wonder God rested for a day. Wait. A day. Not millions of years. Imagine He just creates the earth and man and then He's not working for millions of years, good luck with satan.

 

Trading, ah:

https://delevensschool.org/en/ezekiel-2815-16-widespread-trade/

The printed Strong’s Concordance translates ‘rakal’ as:

to travel for trading – i.e. travelling in order to sell.

It is interesting that two words are derived from ‘rakal’:

‘rakkulah’, as explained above

‘rakiyl’

According to the OLB ‘rakiyl’ is a noun:

someone who busies himself going around spreading scandals

to be translated as: slander, slanderer, libeller, traitor.

At a given moment the guardian angel with splendid appearance and a high position in the heavenly hierarchy, who was very near the throne of God, became proud and cast aspersions on God.  He went around in heaven praising himself in front of the angels in heaven as ‘better’, thus desecrating heaven.

God removed this superb angel, who fell into sin, from heaven:

Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendour. So I threw you to the earth …   (Ezekiel 28:17)

Satan found an audience with a third of the angels in heaven, as a result of which they were also banned from heaven.

He fell into sin through his ‘widespread trade’, through his ‘abundant hawking’ and became the adversary of God.

 

Edited March 21 by RdJ

[RV_Wizard]

The angels were created before the earth; maybe billions of years before.  Maybe some of the angels are eternal.  We are told precious little about the angels other than that they are servants and messengers of God.  Lucifer, the fallen archangel, was apparently out of favor with God when the world was created.  However, he was still going back and forth between earth and Heaven, and was still conversing with God when Job walked the earth.

Like with Job, Satan is allowed to tempt and test man to weed out the unfaithful from the faithful.  I've seen nothing to indicate that he can still meet with God in Heaven, other than that in the Revelation he makes a war with Heaven and is cast out finally into the earth.  Then in Revelation 20 he is cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years.  Then he is released for a time to wreck havoc, as he does.  Finally, he and his angels will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity.  Until then, we have him here amongst us; making up false teaching and false religions to deceive many.