Why is the "mark" in the RIGHT hand?

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

50 minutes ago, Jaydub said:

If we could just continue in our talk. I would like to ask you a question about a scripture on the subject, more or less. REV 20:4-5

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection

I can't read these verses and conclude that the mark must be literal

I saw the thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to Judge

I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God

Are these not all believers?  aren't these verse  referring to all the believers in heaven ?  If so, Then it must be symbolic, because there was no physical mark, but if it was symbolic then it would  make sense. If it is only speaking about tribulation saints how is it the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years had ended. In other words, if it is only tribulation saints, then where are the other saints reigning with Christ

I am having trouble putting my thoughts down, but I hope you understand what I am trying to say here, maybe you can help me through this. Am I looking at it the wrong way?

Hey Jaydub, I can relate to your last comment there because when it comes to this thing I think its difficult to word anything, whether you might take it spiritually (altogether) or a carnal (altogether) or a little of both (depending) but  either way can leave us with enough doubt and our words fall short in proving it out 100% to convince others of our stand. When trying to work this out I might take certain "parts" (or references) and try to work them out in various ways. And in one place it sounds good, seems to fit whereas elsewhere it doesn't.  And so land into my scrap pile. I will give you a small an example of me attempting this. In this example, I was considering the mark as being of a spiritual nature, the one we are simply all marked with (somehow) and one we are to overcome, and so something that belonged to us and should no more (In Christ) but still could if we do not overcome (just for example). So I will argue with myself or try and prove out (to myself) a thing that way.

Here is me " trying to prove" a thing out (not me trying to refute it) in a spiritual way (just to give you an idea) In this case lets use Rev 15:2

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

I might start with what James says concerning the natural man (which is likened to a beast) and the keyword "glass" both in the above in James and elsewhere when he writes,

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

James 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

So instead of "beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord" as by the Spirit (2 Cr 3:18)  such is  beholding his natural face in a glass

James 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man "he was."

Because we know the natural man is compared to a beast for example

Psalm 49:20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

Just as back here it says,

Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them,  and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

There are others, but how can we catch the sea of glass mingled with fire they stand on? Can it somehow be tied that i to the baptism of John who mentions the Spirit and fire combo?

1 Cr 10:2 "And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea" 

Jesus walked on the water, and baptism and the Sea can be shown also

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, 

I indeed baptize you with water; 

but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: 

he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire

Which just reminds me of the imagery combination found in Rev 15:2 and standing on a sea of glass mingled with fire

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Which is directly connected to getting victory of the beast, and his mark

So if any place could possibly represent a contrast to a hearer of the word (and not a doer) and left beholding his natural face in a a glass ( who goes his forgetting what manner of man "he was") which is after the manner of a beast it could be there. Seeing that there is this imagery of a  sea of glass mingled with fire and they which are standing upon the same had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image. Which could "represent" in some way a  picture of overcoming his own face (pun intended) or rather what manner of man he was (natural brute beast)

Psalm 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.

That would fit.

What's sort of cool between the places of comparisons in trying to arrive at this place is that "glass" is shown between all three pictures. In James 1:23 its shown as it pertains to the natural man/beast beholding himself in a glass and in Rev 15:2 where it shows them standing upon a sea of glass which pertains to them getting victory over the beast and his image. And in 2 Cr 3:18 where Paul says, "we all with an open face  beholding in a glass the glory of the Lord and changed into his image and going from glory unto glory.  The latter in 2 Cr 3:18  could easily depict the more victorious standing (in contrast to James 1:23)

2 Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory  to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

That's a victorious image and looking glass

So in just that one verse, in trying to use the same words elsewhere in a comparison, and  in this case "glass" from a spiritual perspective starting from the position of the natural man/beast (or ones own image) and victory over the same (as it might be depicted, and followed up by "we all, with an open face beholding as in a glass" as by the Spirit the glory of the Lord.

Then would attempt to drag in the buying and selling parts, whether the buying or selling is spiritually speaking or carnally speaking. And so if the above is correct in anyway I still need to work in the other verses which pertains to the mark of the beast and connecting them so they all make sense to me (leaving no doubts) is the problem.

And the above was just a mental exercise that's all, my "attempt" at trying to confirm a certain perspective, I prefer to confirm something when I consider something, rather then disregard it without an honest attempt in considering it, if it doesn't fit I just discard it, or set it aside and come back to it later if I have been given more to consider.

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

 

Here would be my other question, how are those which have not the mark "not able" to buy or sell? Whether that be spiritual things such as the truth (buy the truth and sell it not) or carnal things, for example groceries (which obviously need buyers and sellers). 

In the matter of Truth (lets say) Jesus is the Truth, and he was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. And in this instance Truth is a person and the money was literal by Judas who purchased a field with the reward of his iniquity. Then we have the Truth (the Holy Spirit) the oil in believers lets say,

As it says here

Prov 20:20 There is treasure to be desired and oil in the dwelling of the wise

Or as Paul says,

2Cr 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

So similar to the foolish virgins Simon desires this oil in the dwelling of the wise and says give me also this oil (or excellency of power) or that treasure in your earthen vessel

Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Whereas the wise would be shown answering such the foolish saying

Mat 25:29 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

But Peter answers Simon saying

Acts 8:19 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

So the wise virgins response "Not so, go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves". (In Mat 25:29) 

So it does show we can both buy and sell earthly things, but the truth also (Whether Jesus himself, or the Holy Spirit) are a thing men (which in believe even) are shown attempting to sell or buy also and with money itself.  

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

We also know Simon believed and was baptized and wanted the Holy Ghost for the wrong reason it shows in the text, Simon offered them money that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost and Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness

And Simon (who offered money for the Holy Spirit) was told by Peter that he was in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. Which is the same word used in reference to Judas who purchased a field with the reward of iniquity in Acts 1:18 And in both money was involved. In the one, money from those who valued Christ to sell out the Truth (Jesus Christ) by the hands of his betrayer Judas who in turn handed over Jesus to them for the price. And in the other, Simon, was offering money to buy the Holy Spirit of truth to have the charge over such power on whomsoever he laid his hands on.

So scripture shows us that there are those who offer money for the gift of God.

Apparently there are buyers out there (Judas for Jesus, Simon for the Holy Spirit). Had the apostles took the money (which they did not) only then would it make them sellers by default.

Edited December 27, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

 

Here would be my other question, how are those which have not the mark "not able" to buy or sell? Whether that be spiritual things such as the truth (buy the truth and sell it not) or carnal things, for example groceries (which obviously need buyers and sellers). 

In the matter of Truth (lets say) Jesus is the Truth, and he was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. And in this instance Truth is a person and the money was literal by Judas who purchased a field with the reward of his iniquity. Then we have the Truth (the Holy Spirit) the oil in believers lets say,

As it says here

Prov 20:20 There is treasure to be desired and oil in the dwelling of the wise

Or as Paul says,

2Cr 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

So similar to the foolish virgins Simon desires this oil in the dwelling of the wise and says give me also this oil (or excellency of power) or that treasure in your earthen vessel

Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Whereas the wise would be shown answering such the foolish saying

Mat 25:29 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

But Peter answers Simon saying

Acts 8:19 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

So the wise virgins response "Not so, go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves". (In Mat 25:29) 

So it does show we can both buy and sell earthly things, but the truth also (Whether Jesus himself, or the Holy Spirit) are a thing men (which in believe even) are shown attempting to sell or buy also and with money itself.  

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

We also know Simon believed and was baptized and wanted the Holy Ghost for the wrong reason it shows in the text, Simon offered them money that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost and Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness

And Simon (who offered money for the Holy Spirit) was told by Peter that he was in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. Which is the same word used in reference to Judas who purchased a field with the reward of iniquity in Acts 1:18 And in both money was involved. In the one, money from those who valued Christ to sell out the Truth (Jesus Christ) by the hands of his betrayer Judas who in turn handed over Jesus to them for the price. And in the other, Simon, was offering money to buy the Holy Spirit of truth to have the charge over such power on whomsoever he laid his hands on.

So scripture shows us that there are those who offer money for the gift of God.

Apparently there are buyers out there (Judas for Jesus, Simon for the Holy Spirit). Had the apostles took the money (which they did not) only then would it make them sellers by default.

In case there's a quiz later, it should be noted Judas didn't buy the Potter's Field, the chief priests did. Matthew 27:6-9

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

7 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

In case there's a quiz later, it should be noted Judas didn't buy the Potter's Field, the chief priests did. Matthew 27:6-9

I am not referencing Matthew I am referencing  Acts 1:18  which references Judas selling out Jesus Christ and the reward of his iniquity as is mentioned here

Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

And comparing what was said to Simon who offered money to buy the Holy Ghost here

Acts 8:23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

 

 

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

56 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

In case there's a quiz later, it should be noted Judas didn't buy the Potter's Field, the chief priests did. Matthew 27:6-9

Also, this is for you Michael37 for any future quiz shows you may desire to enter

Mathew 27 & Acts 1

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty 
pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

Mat 27:25 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Mat 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury,  because it is the price of blood.

Mat 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.

Mat 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.

Mat 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, (see rather Zechariah 11:12-13) saying, And they took the thirty  pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

Mat 27:10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.

Acts 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before  concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all  his bowels gushed out.

Acts 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama,  that is to say, The field of blood.

There is very little in this one to find spelling errors but if you comb through some of the others (written freehanded) there's bound to be something you can get really excited over 

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, AFlameOfFire said:

I am not referencing Matthew I am referencing  Acts 1:18  which references Judas selling out Jesus Christ and the reward of his iniquity as is mentioned here

Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

And comparing what was said to Simon who offered money to buy the Holy Ghost here

Acts 8:23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Yes, it was his money that was used. 

3 points and through to the next round.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

9 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Yes, it was his money that was used. 

3 points and through to the next round.

I would prefer "Oops, MY bad!"

That works great for me (though I know I will never in my life hear that!)

[Michael37]

1 minute ago, AFlameOfFire said:

I would prefer "Oops, MY bad!"

That works great for me (though I know I will never in my life hear that!)

There was no bad, so no Oops. Just an answer to be noted in case there is a quiz.

Q. According to Matthew 27:6-9 who bought the Potter's Field with the money paid to Judas?

A. The chief priests.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

17 hours ago, Jaydub said:

If we could just continue in our talk.

This talk might have to be cut short, not by my own choice, so if I do not respond at some point here  its because I am unable to.