Understanding Matthew 24:13 – “But he who endures to the end shall be saved.”

[rollinTHUNDER]

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I will agree that there are as many verses in the Bible about eternal security as there are about losing it. Such as the conjunction if and until the end. The question, I believe, boils down to whether they are genuinely born again or not.

If our eternal security rested in our hands, we would lose it. God holds us and keeps us, not losing one, save Judas. Can we recant our faith, belief, and trust through free will? If we were reborn of the Spirit, I do not think so.

It took me a long time to study Hebrews 6:4-6 to settle my mind about who the audience was and its application. Those verses personally concerned me.

Another example is when Jesus walked the earth, did anyone get saved? What about the disciple Peter, when he denied Christ three times?

·       Did Peter have saving faith in Jesus, to begin with?

·       Did Peter lose his eternal Salvation?

What is John 21:15-18 all about? Was Peter's Salvation restored to him or his discipleship? They still lacked faith after all the miracles Peter and the disciples witnessed. They had a kernel of faith that exponentially grew over time, and most became martyrs for their faith. How much faith does it take to be eternally secure?

If it were possible to lose one's Salvation, can they regain it if they change their minds? Is it a one-shot offer? If that were the case, the Holy Spirit would be a renter, not permanently indwelling a believer or sealed unto the day of redemption.

To put it in secular terms, let us use rings as an example: a promise ring, an engagement ring, and a wedding ring. First, the promise was given for engagement. Second, the engagement was formally announced. In Jesus's day, engagement was recognized as almost as good as marriage and for tax purposes. The final process was the wedding ring, consummation of the marriage, and marriage feast.

Through no fault of her own, the fiancé finds something better and asks for the promise and engagement ring back. Legally and morally, can he demand it back?

The centuries-old debate, Augustine vs. Arminius, continues. I like the following commentary.

The question is: Who endures to the end? Well, when I study the Book of Revelation, I find that God will stop all the forces of nature and of   p 134  evil and even the forces of good while He seals a certain number of folk. So who is going to endure to the end? Those whom He seals at the beginning, of course. The Good Shepherd—in all ages—will bring His sheep through to the end. When He starts with a hundred sheep, He comes through with a hundred sheep.

When someone says to me, “So–and–so was very active in the church and has gone into sin. Is he saved?” I can only reply that I do not know. We will have to wait to see what happens. I tell people that the pigs will eventually end up in the pigpen, and the prodigal sons will all find their way back to the Father’s house. It is confusing to find a son in a pigpen and a pig in the Father’s house. Peter says, “ … the sow that was washed [has returned] to her wallowing in the mire” (2 Pet. 2:22). Let’s say that one of the little pigs went with the prodigal son to the father’s house, that he was scrubbed clean, his teeth brushed with Pepsodent, and that a pink ribbon was tied around his neck. But he wouldn’t stay in the father’s house. Sooner or later he would go back to the pigpen where he belonged. “He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” You’ll just have to wait and see. Sometimes a son, a Christian, will get into a pigpen, but since he is a son, he will get out someday. Why? Because he has a wonderful Shepherd. “The same shall be saved.”^[1]

 

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^[1] McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Gospels (Matthew 14-28) (electronic ed., Vol. 35, pp. 133–134). Thomas Nelson.

Very interesting points you bring up, Dennis.

There are several scriptures that are very convincing on both sides of the OSAS issue, even though I didn't intend for this thread to be about that issue.  However, I did mention it, so I guess I must also deal with that part as well.  I remember years ago, I used to believe that one could lose their salvation.  There were plenty of scriptures that would seem to suggest we may be able to lose our salvation.  However, everything changed with the Readiness Rapture theory, and understanding the difference between the cold, hot and lukewarm believers and how they will be rewarded when Christ returns.  I can now see how God may punish believers without them losing their eternal salvation.  Some will suffer loss when it comes time to receive the rewards for the things we've done in His body.
 
As most people know, salvation is a gift, God's grace (unmerited favor) for those who receive His Son.  We can't do anything to earn this free gift, nor are we told that we must do certain things in order to keep it.  There are promises made for doers of His Word and for those who overcome, but these just bring greater reward.  It doesn't mean the others will lose their gift.  The parables do show that there will be punishments as well, for wicked or lazy servants, and God is able to punish them without taking their free gift.

I don't believe Peter ever lost his salvation, but may have lost his faith for a time, but his faith was later restored.  I'm sure he was much stronger in faith after he received the Holy Spirit a few days later.  You also mentioned that one man got saved and started out doing great things in the church, but then later he seemed to fizzle out.  You questioned was he really saved to begin with?  Fair question, but I don't believe it's our place to judge that.  God knows which ones belong to Him, and Jesus promised that He would lose none of the ones His Father gave Him.

But here's where I think the rubber meets the road.  God cannot lie.  And it was His promise that everyone who called upon the name of the Lord would be saved.  Everyone who confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believes in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead, they will be saved, for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (Romans 10:9-10).

Now, it may be possible for someone to lose their salvation if they later change their mind and renounce or denounce their faith, but I'm not certain about this.  Just suggesting that it (may) be possible, but I would not recommend this.  I am aware of one act that would most definitely give God an out, so He no longer has to keep His promise of salvation, and that would be when a believer takes the forbidden mark of the beast.  If that should happen, it's game over.

Cheers

[Revelation Man]

On 12/19/2023 at 1:13 PM, rollinTHUNDER said:

Matthew 24:13 is often quoted to refute Christian’s who believe in eternal security or “once saved – always saved” (OSAS).  Both sides of this hotly debated issue are popular, as there seems to be a 50/50 split among those who believe it has merit versus those who don’t.  One side believes our salvation is eternally secure once we accept and receive Christ as our Lord and savior, but it seems that just as many believe that we can lose our salvation.  Personally, I believe this scripture is most often misunderstood, misapplied and taken out of context.  In this post I hope to shed more light on this subject and share a completely different perspective, so let’s jump right into the scripture in context.

 

Firstly, before addressing the passage, the OSAS is a misunderstood concept. You can accept Christ and not be saved, Jesus tells us this, you have cast out Demons in my name, healed people in my name, but I never knew you, depart from me. So, what does this mean and what does OSAS mean ? Let me demonstrate the problematic thinking.

If the L.A. Rams are ahead of the Atlanta Falcons 14-0 at half time people say they are *Winning* but if they lose the game against Atlanta 24-14 was the *Winning* at half time or *Losing up 14-0  at half time?* LOL, get it? No one is saved until they have finished the journey, now God already knows the future, but we MUST ENDURE UNTIL THE END [of our lives]. That is what Matt. 24:13 means, it was a message specifically until the Disciples who would all be Martyred save John, by this wicked world. People who think professing Jesus makes us saved are wrong, Satan believes and trembles. 

So, if you were SAVED that means God foreknew it and you were saved, just like Atlanta was winning at halftime down 14-0 but just did not know they were winning. So, if you are SAVED you are saved, but in truth each man must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling. God demands obedience, you can not just say, I love you Jesus each Sunday then live for Satan, that will not work.

On 12/19/2023 at 1:13 PM, rollinTHUNDER said:

Matthew 24:9-14 – “Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. And you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. ¹⁰ Then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another. ¹¹ And many false prophets will rise and will deceive many. ¹² Because iniquity will abound, the love of many will grow cold. ¹³ But he who endures to the end shall be saved. ¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.”

Where I differ greatly from most is that many people assume that Jesus was talking about our salvation and/or whether or not we can lose it.  However, I do not believe He was referring to our eternal salvation in the passage above. Sometimes words have several different meanings. 

This is about WORLDY PEOPLE and why they will kill the Disciples. This is only about the Disciples lives, as is all of Matt. 24:4-13, in 14 we see a future pre trib rapture requirement, the Gospel has to be preached unto all the world before the rapture comes.

On 12/19/2023 at 1:13 PM, rollinTHUNDER said:

Matthew 24:21-22 – “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.“

In my view, this second mention of the word makes it much clearer.  Jesus tells them about a future time of great tribulation, that will be unequaled in the history of the world.  It will be so distressing that if those days were not shortened, no flesh would be saved.  Some may assume that no flesh being saved would mean the extinction of all mankind on the earth if those days were not shortened, but I don’t see it that way at all.  Rather, I believe Jesus was alluding to all living Christians during this specific time (great tribulation) would be killed if those days weren’t shortened.  In other words, all living Christians would be killed if Christ doesn’t shorten those days.  He said it was for the sake of His elect that those days would be shortened, not for the sake of mankind.  Jesus warned of a coming persecution where Christians will be hated by all nations (global government) and killed for His namesake.  Revelation 13 tells us about the beast overcoming the saints.  This is why I believe Jesus warned that we must be ready, or worthy to be among His chosen (elect).

I believe the shortening of those days is alluding to the gathering together of His elect, when the sign of the Son of man appears and rescues those who are ready (rapture). 

Jesus does not SHORTEN the Prophesied 7 years or the also prophesied 1260 days. He is speaking about how his 2nd Coming will kill the Anti-Christ and his thugs before they were able to kill off all of the flesh on this earth. This man still rules 1260 days, that is when Jesus shows up to intervene, thus shortening the troubles at hand by killing him. The Elect here are only Jews, because the Gentile Church is in heaven, and the Gentiles who come to Christ during the 70th week are not protected, they are the Martyrs seen under the 5th Seal. 1/3 of the world will burn, Christians die in tornadoes today, God will only protect the 1/3 of the Jews who repent because there has to be a Kingdom Age of 1000 years where Jesus rules from Jerusalem with his fellow Jewish brothers. 

Basically none of Matt. 24, until we get to verse 15 is the 70th week, its all about the Disciples lives, verses 7 and 8 is Jesus describing WHY verse 6 is NOT THE END (70th week) in vivid detail by says all these things must come first, then he goes right back into explaining why they will all die and say YOU MUST endure until he END [of your lives]. Then in vs. 14 he explains when the Rapture will happen, and they knew they would never preach to India, China etc. etc. 

So how did this set them up well? Lets see, they knew 100 percent that the 67-70 AD events could not be Jesus, so they STAYED AWAY, thus probably saving the young Church from perishing the Disciples had led a revolt.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Revelation Man.

I don't want to spend too much time and energy on OSAS or whether someone is really saved or not.  I do differ with you about this being solely about His disciples.  They specifically asked Him about the sign of His coming and the end of the age.  They won't be here for the great tribulation, but Jesus answered their question anyway, and in great detail.  I believe He did so for the sake of those who would be alive to witness these endtime events.

Cheers

 

[Revelation Man]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:38 PM, rollinTHUNDER said:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Revelation Man.

I don't want to spend too much time and energy on OSAS or whether someone is really saved or not.  I do differ with you about this being solely about His disciples.  They specifically asked Him about the sign of His coming and the end of the age.  They won't be here for the great tribulation, but Jesus answered their question anyway, and in great detail.  I believe He did so for the sake of those who would be alive to witness these endtime events.

Cheers

OK, I am game, I also do not like the OSAS because to me its word salad, like whose winning or losing at halftime. 

You are correct, the disciples did ask Jesus about his coming, and the end, but that comes in verses 15-31. Sipping on my Carmel Macchiato so I figured now's the time to sit and go over this. I am going to try to prove why verses 7-8 is not really germane to Matt. 4-14, its just Jesus giving a demonstration, but many people do not understand that and think its about the 70th week seals or the end times, it not really. I will give an overview, then go over what it means via each verse.

So, the disciples come to Jesus and talk about the temple etc. etc. and Jesus picks this time to teach them a valuable lesson. He knows the temple will be destroyed in 70 AD, he also knows the Pharisees will put forth a couple of "Messianic Figures" in like 67-70 AD and that if his disciples fall for these lying lies, and returns to fight against Rome, they will be killed, and if their followers in the early church follow them into battle the early Christian Church will be in peril of being wiped out. So, Jesus being God the Redeemer, knows he has to teach them that 70 AD is NOT THE END (70th week) else they will all rush back thinking this is Jesus come again. So, Jesus tells them this temple will be destroyed, not one rock will be left standing. This peaks their interest, so they say "WHEN WILL THESE THINGS BE" (Temples destruction first) and what will be the sign of your coming and the End of the World (AGE of Man which ushers in the Kingdom Age where Jesus/God then reigns for 1000 years). 

So, Jesus goes about teaching them very carefully why they should not fall into the 70 AD trap that Satan is setting up for them. Thus I call Matt. 24:4-14 the SURVIVAL GUIDE of the Disciples and Early Church, as given by Jesus. He tells them what is NOT THE END in vs. 6 and then what IS THE END in vs. 14. The later verse 14, shows why vs. 6 can not be the end or 70th week. Understanding the intention of Jesus' teaching in Matt. 24 makes it easier to explain, verse by verse.

Matt. 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?(Temple First) and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

67-70 AD Events in verses 4-6

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many(the Pharisees/Jewish Leaders). 6 And ye(Disciples survival guide) shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

{{{ So, remember when Jesus told the Pharisees you will not accept me who comes from the Father, but you (Pharisees) will accept another who comes in his own name ? Well, John 5:43 is FULFILLED with Matt. 24:5-6, the 70 AD events where the Pharisees put forth "Messianic Type Figures" to help them defeat Rome, who they knew was the Fourth Beast. This is why Judas wanted Jesus to fight !! Thus Jesus forewarns his Disciples here not to buy into this being the VERY END(70th week), he even says the end is by and by or much later on AND THEN Demonstrates why this event (70 AD) is not nor can be the very end, or him coming again during the 70th week, his demonstration can be seen in the next two verses, which are outliers, not even about what Jesus is really teaching the disciples here, they are only meant to show why the 70 AD events can't be "THE END", nothing more. }}}

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.(Birth Pangs)

{{{ So, why can't verse 6 be THE END? Because many, many things must happen before the end comes my beloved Disciples, like a Pregnant Woman with Birth Pangs that get worse and worse, there will be MANY, MANY. MANY Wars before I come (well, that means it can't be 70 AD right? Makes perfect sense now) Kingdoms will rise against kingdoms, meaning Rome will not be in charge over things forever, and Nations against nations (Ethos against ethos or clans against clans) so it has to be on down the line. There will be much more famine and many deaths by pestilence(Black Plague etc. etc.), so it can't be 70 AD, and finally there will be many, many earthquakes, and before 70 AD if there were not earthquakes to speak of, that showed the Disciples 70 AD was not nor could be Jesus' 2nd coming, but vs, 14 is the CLENCHER. Now, Jesus dives back into his survival guide lesson. }}}

Jesus informs the Disciples how they will all die

9 Then shall they deliver you(Disciples) up to be afflicted, and shall kill you(All the Disciples, save for John were murdered): and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another(So called Christians start RATTING on true Christians because of the terror Rome brought), and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

{{{ These were not Christian false prophets here, but the Zeus, Jupiter and Sun god types, the Oracles of the false gods hated the Disciples because their patrons were turning from them unto Christianity. Jesus tells them the will be killed by "these type false prophets who are in good with Rome and other worldly leaders", but nonetheless, you have to ENDURE UNTIL THE END [of your lives] All those who do this shall be saved, in other words do not turn into another Judas. Also, by foretelling them they would all die, way ahead of time, they were not surprised by it, they expected it, and all but John was murdered.}}}

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

{{{ So, this is how Jesus gave his Disciples a fool proof way to not get involved in the 67-70 AD events, thinking it was Jesus come again, to start with he tells them those events are not my 2nd Coming (NOT THE END.........Its LATER ON) And then he tells them, hey, you want to know when the end will come? Well, this Gospel has to be preached unto ALL THE WORLD, then the END (70th week) will come. This is why I call Matt. 4-14 a Survival Guide for the Disciples and early Church. They knew 100 percent they would never see Jesus' 2nd coming, why? Because they knew of China, India and the Scythians (modern day Russia) and they knew 100 percent when Jesus said this will bring THE END, that the would never see THE END themselves thus when they heard about the "Messianic Figures" put forth by the Pharisees is 67-70 AD it was not Jesus !! They had a fool proof guide, Jesus gave them all this for a reason. Only with vs, 15 can THE END (70th week events) be seen. 

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Revelation Man

[rollinTHUNDER]

On 12/22/2023 at 3:41 PM, Revelation Man said:

Jesus informs the Disciples how they will all die

9 Then shall they deliver you(Disciples) up to be afflicted, and shall kill you(All the Disciples. save John were murdered): and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another(So called Christians start RATTING on true Christians because of the terror Rome brought), and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

{{{Jesus tells them the will be killed by these type false prophets who are in good with Rome and other worldly leaders, but nonetheless, you have to ENDURE UNTIL THE END [of your lives] All those who do this shall be saved, in other words do not turn into another Judas. Also, by foretelling them they would all die, way ahead of time, they were not surprised by it, they expected it, and all but John was murdered.}}}

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

 

I agree that Jesus told them they would be killed.  However, He was very clear about the end in verse 14.  Then He immediately pointed to the abomination of desolation, which starts the great tribulation in the very next verse.

Matthew 24:14-15 - "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

The Great Tribulation

¹⁵ “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),"

So does enduring to the end mean enduring to the end of your lives, or enduring to the end of the great tribulation, when Jesus promises to gather together His elect (rescue/rapture), immediately after the tribulation?

Matthew 24:21-22 - "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not happened since the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be. ²² “Unless those days were shortened, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

In my view, He will shorten those days for the sake of His elect who are living, otherwise no one would be saved.  Another version says no flesh would be saved, which is clearly referring to the living elect.

We may be straining at gnats here, because I also believe you would be correct for people who lived and died before the great tribulation, but these would rise first in the resurrection of the dead, which precedes the rapture of the living.  Jesus is talking about the living here, because He is continuing and increasing knowledge about Daniel's unfinished prophecy...

Daniel was told about the resurrection, but nothing about the rapture, as this is precisely where the words were shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

Daniel 12:1-4 - "And at that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who shall be found written in the book. ² Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt. ³ Those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who turn the many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever. ⁴ But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

Jesus fills in the blanks and continues where the words to Daniel's prophecy were shut up and sealed until the time of the end, speaking about the rapture of the living, starting at verse 21.

Matthew 24:21-22 - "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not happened since the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be. ²² “Unless those days were shortened, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

Interestingly, Daniel was told about the resurrection of the dead, but nothing about the rapture of the living.  And hundreds of years later, Jesus continues these words, adding the rapture of the living, but says nothing about the resurrection of the dead.  And later, the apostle Paul would confirm both as he put the two together.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 - "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall be forever with the Lord."

Matthew 24:29-31 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, ‘the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Before I wrote my book, most scholars believed that the increase of knowledge in Daniel's prophecy was alluding to the advancing of modern technology at the time of the end.  No doubt, technology has always been advancing, but they overlooked that it was about the words to Daniel's prophecy, the words that were shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

Daniel 12:8-13 - "As for me, I heard, but I could not understand. So I said, “My lord, what shall be the result of these things?”

⁹ And he said, “Go your way, Daniel. For these words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. ¹⁰ Many shall be purified and made white and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly, and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

¹¹ “From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. ¹² Blessed is he who waits and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

¹³ “But as for you, go your way until the end. Then you shall rest and rise again for your lot at the end of the age.”

I believe the increase of knowledge came with the New Testament.  And it was none other than Jesus, Himself, who continued and completed Daniel's prophecy.  Just as Christ was concealed in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament, the same can be said about rapture.  The old covenant saints knew about the resurrection, but they had no clue about the mysterious rapture, the Church, the new covenant and even very little about their coming Messiah.  I love how the Lord eased Daniel's mind at the end of this prophecy.  Daniel knew these things would happen after his life on earth had ended, and that he would be rewarded at the resurrection at the end of the age.

[Shilohsfoal]

On 12/25/2023 at 12:19 PM, rollinTHUNDER said:

I agree that Jesus told them they would be killed.  However, He was very clear about the end in verse 14.  Then He immediately pointed to the abomination of desolation, which starts the great tribulation in the very next verse.

Matthew 24:14-15 - "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

The Great Tribulation

¹⁵ “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),"

So does enduring to the end mean enduring to the end of your lives, or enduring to the end of the great tribulation, when Jesus promises to gather together His elect (rescue/rapture), immediately after the tribulation?

Matthew 24:21-22 - "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not happened since the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be. ²² “Unless those days were shortened, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

In my view, He will shorten those days for the sake of His elect who are living, otherwise no one would be saved.  Another version says no flesh would be saved, which is clearly referring to the living elect.

We may be straining at gnats here, because I also believe you would be correct for people who lived and died before the great tribulation, but these would rise first in the resurrection of the dead, which precedes the rapture of the living.  Jesus is talking about the living here, because He is continuing and increasing knowledge about Daniel's unfinished prophecy...

Daniel was told about the resurrection, but nothing about the rapture, as this is precisely where the words were shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

Daniel 12:1-4 - "And at that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who shall be found written in the book. ² Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt. ³ Those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who turn the many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever. ⁴ But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

Jesus fills in the blanks and continues where the words to Daniel's prophecy were shut up and sealed until the time of the end, speaking about the rapture of the living, starting at verse 21.

Matthew 24:21-22 - "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not happened since the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be. ²² “Unless those days were shortened, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

Interestingly, Daniel was told about the resurrection of the dead, but nothing about the rapture of the living.  And hundreds of years later, Jesus continues these words, adding the rapture of the living, but says nothing about the resurrection of the dead.  And later, the apostle Paul would confirm both as he put the two together.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 - "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall be forever with the Lord."

Matthew 24:29-31 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, ‘the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

 

Imagine a nuke being dropped on Jerusalem as well as all the cities in the middle east.It would be a time of great tribulation and a lot of people being consumed.Its them who have received  rain who are not consumed.They will be saved when the armed forces use the abomination that causes desolation.Them who are fleeing to the mountains to hide in caves are not saved.The saints that are alive at that time are simply told to look up.

 

²⁸ And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[rollinTHUNDER]

2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Imagine a nuke being dropped on Jerusalem as well as all the cities in the middle east.It would be a time of great tribulation and a lot of people being consumed.Its them who have received  rain who are not consumed.They will be saved when the armed forces use the abomination that causes desolation.Them who are fleeing to the mountains to hide in caves are not saved.The saints that are alive at that time are simply told to look up.

 

²⁸ And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

You said that before, but I just can't see that happening.  Scripture says the man of sin or son of perdition will go into the re-built temple showing himself as God.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 - "Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and concerning our gathering together unto Him, we ask you ² not to let your mind be quickly shaken or be troubled, neither in spirit nor by word, nor by letter coming as though from us, as if the day of Christ is already here. ³ Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For that Day will not come unless a falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, ⁴ who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself as God."
 

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

You said that before, but I just can't see that happening.  Scripture says the man of sin or son of perdition will go into the re-built temple showing himself as God.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 - "Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and concerning our gathering together unto Him, we ask you ² not to let your mind be quickly shaken or be troubled, neither in spirit nor by word, nor by letter coming as though from us, as if the day of Christ is already here. ³ Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For that Day will not come unless a falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, ⁴ who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself as God."
 

Paul taught that  the temple of God was the church.Not a building made of stone.Paul also didn't mention the abomination of desolation 

 

But that really doesn't matter because it's not the son of perdition who puts the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem.That is a job carried out by the armed forces.

 

Daniel 12:31

³¹ “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

 

 

Now the son of perdition may order his armed forces to set up the abomination of desolation ,but he does not set it up himself.Its the armed forces that handle the abomination of desolation.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[rollinTHUNDER]

6 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Paul taught that  the temple of God was the church.Not a building made of stone.

 

But that really doesn't matter because it's not the son of perdition who puts the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem.That is a job carried out by the armed forces.

 

Daniel 12:31

³¹ “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

 

 

Now the son of perdition may order his armed forces to set up the abomination of desolation ,but he does not set it up himself.Its the armed forces that handle the abomination of desolation.

We are living stones being built as a heavenly temple, but this does not negate the fact that the religious Jews want their temple re-built.  It will be rebuilt, and they will resume animal sacrifices.  This will probably not go over very well with the world.  No doubt, the armed forces will cause the desolation, but I still see no nuclear bombs in any of this.